World Cup Slalom Opener - Levi, Finland November 17th & 18th

[Muleski]

I'll post more when we think we can do away with the spoiler thing, or more likely when it seems like we've waited long enough. I think the entire world of ski racing fans know the results of WC races just as soon as they finish, or as shortly after one wakes up. I can respect if people want to keep it unspoiled, but you could also avoid being on line. FIS has every WC race online with live timing for a reason. I woke up this AM at 6:30 EST, and it was kind of hard for me to avoid! I do respect the spoiler thing.

I don't think this is spoiling things. Once you move into the higher ranks of course setting, say the top reaches of domestic FIS, NorAms, Europa Cup and obviously on to the WC, you put a lot of thought into it. It's a serious job. And what you are doing is setting for the very top group of skiers, to help separate them, and determine a winner and podium. You're not trying to make it easier for those in the background of the pack to "ski better", "score", etc. and narrow the gap. So if the results do as intended, even if they trip up some people.....well done. Mission accomplished.

In my family, both of my kids had real screwups, frankly in very big events that likely would have changed the trajectory of their careers. Races that would have probably put them right into the USST system, early. They were running with decent bib numbers, and were positioned to do well. One was an SG, and one of them had not really opals attention to one blind turn after a rollover, and had been tuning out a coach during inspection. Carried a lot of heat, wrong line, blew right by the gate. It hurt. A lot. The other was the same general thing. Misjudged just how fast this GS set was, and was not ready for a serious correction and rhythm change. I think that none of the top seed had issues. About a third of the next 15 did. Maybe half of those with bibs 30+, who where skiing hammer down {not just trying to finish.} I think in both instances they were really well set courses. The best skiers that day did the very best.

Much different than setting for kids.

Newfy, I'll respond with some thoughts later. "It's real confusing".....shall we say, IMO.

 

[4ster]

Or would everyone prefer that everyone finish cleanly even if it bunches up the competitors more?

Course setting is an art and there is a balance between setting an interesting course with difficult sections & setting tricks or not recognizing a spot on the hill that may deteriorate to the point of making it unfair. The latter has caused races to be cancelled or stopped before everyone has raced. As @Muleski stated it’s different at the WC level but poor course setting can also make a race not fun to watch. Ante Kostelic had a reputation for creating very difficult (ugly) sets, probably thinking it would give his kids an advantage. This was not always the case
I first learned course setting from a well known european racer and coach. He taught me to always set the course with rhythm and flow in a way that all could finish “Zee best vill still be zee vastest!”
At the same time a course can also be boringly easy which is also not fun to watch. Easy to be critical from my Lazy Boy but my heart sunk for a few of those guys toward the end. By then they certainly should have had similar information as the final 2 racers.

I can respect if people want to keep it unspoiled, but you could also avoid being on line.

I have learned to just avoid going online. I often feel bad for someone like @Swede who is watching in real time.
For me being in the west, I am often on the hill all day & look forward to watching the race in the evening when the rest of the world is already in bed.
I do think it is reasonable to ask that results aren’t blatantly in the thread title or first line.

 

[Muleski]

We'll get into some of the day's events later on........I'll just say one big surprise for me, and he's an NCAA skier {not an American}.

Let me address one other thing: Ante Kostelic, and his course setting. I've met him and he is a great guy. His story, and what he did to raise his kids and coach them is just amazing. But what he did as a course setter on the WC was close to indescribable. Awful. Every year, nobody knew what to expect, exactly other than the unexpected! Even his kids had no love for them, and you're right.....it never worked out in terms of favoring them. In fact many people think that when an athlete's coach is setting it's a big advantage. It rarely is. The best, if they execute, podium. And on some hills on the WC, there is only so much that you can do. The courses look very similar, year to year. I think that knowing the hill is a bigger advantage.

The fastest normally win, right?

And yes, no need to throw the winners and such right out there. I respect that. Having kids a few time zones away, I get it.

 

[Primoz]

There's two things @4ster and @Mulesk. Very few coaches really set courses for their races, as nowadays it's pretty much impossible to do that. With all technology there is, and on top of that with all the rules there are, it's pretty much impossible to set course that would fit your racers while others would have issues. Second, Ante... I have been talking few times with him and Ivica about those things, and never had impression he would be setting those things to help Ivica (on women side I don't remember he would be that extreme). But he did have idea that for winning WC race (or Olympics or WCH), you need to be best racer around, and that means being able to respond to whatever someone sets. So he was setting "weird" courses, as he was sure most of racers are robots without capabilities of thinking and maybe slowing down intentionally if course required that. And honestly, seeing so many stupid decisions and comments about "not generic" settings, I'm actually 100% with him.
So yes, his settings might not look, but they did bring best, most versatile and pretty much smartest racer on top. But with that we (actually FIS) needs to decide... do they run beauty contest, where nicest looking one wins, or do they run race, where best one wins. On Kostelic' settings it was normally race. Hujara (and several other coaches) were at that time obviously for beauty contest, considering all the crap Kostelic needed to stand.

 

[Swede]

I don’t think K:s settings really did make much difference back in the day, besides being weird. Normally the same skiers at the podium=the best ones.
Spoiler for Sundays SL to follow.

Like yesterday with Hirscher (the impossible). Henrik must be ripping his hair (it do look a little thinner). Muhrer on third but quite a gap to Hirscher. To be fair his first run included a mistake that cost hom half a second. Fast in the steep and slow on the flat was odd for Muhrer, perhaps a good sign for France next round. There had been a small conversation on the way up among a few of the racers. Hirscher apparently hadn’t slept a lot, with the baby and everything. Muhrer said something about perhaps we have a chance t’day. Hirscher laughed, but was really saying, no, I don’t think so.
Harging on HEAD for this season. Made a stupid mistake on the opening flat section. Not being in the first group is new to him and perhaps he was stressed out in inspection? He likes to be first. Well, well. Better luck next time in Val d’isere.

 

[4ster]

Certainly not trying to second-guess the course setter. Just saying there is more to it than meets the eye and a meter or so can make a huge difference. Watching the snow texture at the gate placement & what is coming up down the hill is part of the deal.
I have watched young coaches set courses by just using a rangefinder and find those courses to be boring & mechanical. The setter needs to put a little of their personality into it & use the terrain as perhaps Ante sometimes over did.

 

[Primoz]

@4ster I completely agree with that. Course setting can be easy, and even I have set course or two, but setting good course is anything but easy (I honestly doubt I ever set good/challenging course... hell I don't doubt, I'm pretty sure I never did ). As you wrote, there's lot of things to look after, but that comes with experience (or sometimes not even then), and for setting WC course, you need all that, plus some personality as you wrote

 

[Eleeski]

Slalom racing is the coolest!

 

[HardDaysNight]

At least Kelley finished the first run, albeit more than 8s out. Overall not especially encouraging. Perhaps the boys need to spend more time immersed in freezing water or holding their breath. Or does that only work for downhillers?

 

[Pdub]

Kelley must have fallen and hiked.

 

[Tom Holtmann]

On the topic of course setting - the announcers repeatedly mentioned that the coaches set easy (or less complicated) courses to try and give their racers a better chance to beat MS. I remember this same mantra from last year. Is there anything to this? Doesn't seem to work that is for sure.

 

[4ster]

On the topic of course setting - the announcers repeatedly mentioned that the coaches set easy (or less complicated) courses to try and give their racers a better chance to beat MS. I remember this same mantra from last year. Is there anything to this? Doesn't seem to work that is for sure.

I think there is some truth to that. Although Shiffrin can still win on the straighter courses, put some turns in it and she will separate herself from the field by a greater margin.

 

[hbear]

The gap does close on “easier” sets for sure. Or sets where tiny errors don’t penalize a racer as much as very demanding ones.

Consider both the execution on course as well as the preparation based on inspection. Easy courses are easy to inspect and frankly a racer doesn’t need as much inspection knowledge (racing IQ) to figure out how best to ski it.

A more demanding or technical course with “pay attention” areas or lots of flow changes will favour an athlete that better knows how to prepare and plan.....then of course execute.

In the end, the best skiers always seem to end up on top which is how it should be.

 

[Pete in Idaho]

Spoiler: spoiler

Looks like in the men's SL "USA" stands for "DNF" A clean sweep.

Mule, do you think the US sucks so bad at slalom because of our resorts? The only good slalom hills seem to be in the east, with a short season. I remember arriving in a hotel in Val d'Isere one afternoon, sunny day where I opened the balcony door, and there was a sound all afternoon---wocka wocka wocka. They had a t-bar on a short steep pitch and kids were smacking slalom poles all afternoon. All those aspiring Pinturaults yo-yo'd that course all day, getting in more gates in a couple hours than one could in a full day at Bachelor...or Gold Peak, or any number of places. It was closed to the public, just run for the racers. I know quantity and quality are not the same thing, but I'll bet all those Scandinavian SL specialists have a heck of a lot more gates behind them than our kids.

Certainly agree with Newfy. Years ago, when I was racing we had the Code 3 Ski Club in Northern Calif and Nevada, trained at Tahoe and raced mainly in the Fire and Police Olympics at Mammoth. Our race coach was Roberto Taddeo from Chile and two weeks prior to Mammoth we went to Homewood and trained all day on the T bar hill, lap upon lap, GS and Slalom and boy we were pooped by the end of the day. Roberto was a great coach and knew smacking gates all day would do great things for our ability and confidence. That year Code 3 club literally kicked LA's butt at Mammoth.

Obviously it is inaccurate to compare these racers with the WC but I remember quite a few people didn't want to go ski some T bar at little Homewood. Lapping quickly that day and for 3 days really worked. In the afternoon Roberto set a GS on top which half way down transitioned into a slalom. Boy you better be looking ahead. Great memories.

 

[Black Dog]

Hirscher mentioned in his post race interview something about really liking the new skis he got from Atomic. Maybe he finally gave up the Solomon's he had been skiing on?

 

[Ross Biff]

On the topic of course setting - the announcers repeatedly mentioned that the coaches set easy (or less complicated) courses to try and give their racers a better chance to beat MS. I remember this same mantra from last year. Is there anything to this? Doesn't seem to work that is for sure.

Agree that! How does setting an "easier" course for the slower racer disadvantage the faster racer? A big simplification for sure in the complex world of course setting but still a valid point. As a course settting coach can you favor your own athlete who you know is superb on a left foot turn on a fall-away after a flush going into a flat section etc, etc?

 

[hbear]

Yes, or for speed set a course with more gliding if your athlete is a better glider, etc. (E.g. Vonn).

Can all be done....however more often than not the best still rise to the top.

But as already posted, there is a difference between keeping the pack “competitive” and separating the very best. At the WC level I do like to see separation between the very best and determine who really is the superior racer.

Not to take anything away from Ester, but we can hardly say that SG course in Korea was designed to identify the very best.....more along the lines of not embarrassing or injuring the less proficient.

 

[karlo]

I believe this analysis by Reilly McGlashan is of the first run,


The conclusion is, not much difference between the two styles or postures in the results. Looking at the graph, that's for sure,

What does hips opening and closing mean?