World Cup Mogul Skiing equipment.

[CS2-6]

these folks know their bump skiing

And @mister moose . I shouldn't've forgotten him. He's a wealth of mogul information.

 

[CS2-6]

And

@LiquidFeet... I can't seem to remember everyone all at one time.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I'm no mogul master. I know my beginner mogul stuff, though.

 

[skiii]

I'm now looking for the most forgiving bump ski that can also hold its own relatively well all mountain.

So you want a pair of basketball shoes that you can use for occasional tennis match, or to go for a 5k run in...
You would like a decent carbon road bike that you can occasionally take on a trail- one that you can leave locked to a parking meter for a couple hours with a cable...
You play 3rd base but you are the backup catcher- and it isn't softball...

Sorry, you need a quiver.

I'm in your same boat as I still live for the zipper line when conditions are in my favor and my legs are fresh, and competition bump skis are too stiff. I am now that guy...who lugs his mogul skis +1 pair to the base. More often than not, all day they also serve: they stand and wait.

Although I have been pleasantly shocked at the actual versatility of recent-vintage "all-mountain" lines (Atomic Vantage 90; Fischer pro mtn 86; etc.) which carve quite well, don't chatter on a little schuss, and still float due to their very low swing weight- "honeycomb", mesh, etc. in the tips- there really is no way (at least for me) to use even an 80-width ski to my satisfaction in bumps. Yes, Plake may have looked great on 220's as a young brave...but they were skinny.

The good news is that since you and I do not prefer a competition ski, we can shop around for a steal. (E.g., I bought the last pair of 4FRNT originator for $199 at closeout. I've yet to mount them.) Like for FIS racing skis, there is a very small market, and the real racers tend to want new. Used mogul skis may be more beat up- but maybe not, just too soft for competition. But chances are you can eventually find old models or closeouts.

I had the K2 Mamba (Cabrawler?)- tons of fun but a little too soft even for me at 150 lbs, late 50's. Demo'ed the Twisters and was actually going to get the 175's but I got...closed out. But even those and the softer Harts are really not much fun outside the zipper line. We are forever spoiled by the forgiveness at the new widths. Still, that Plake dude's wisdom still abides (even if I am ironically urging the purchase of a dedicated ski): there is nothing like a flying zipper line skier, knees together, head and shoulders locked on the fall line.

One strategy I have yet to try- I'd bet some here have- is to grab a good pair of 20-year-old skinny skis, maybe slalom <190cm, and see what happens. They stand and wait for chair retirement by the dozens at consignment shops for a song. As noted on another thread, Look Pivots and the Raichle>Full Tilt mold have lasted through decades of twists and turns. It's possible that there is an "all-mountain front side" ski out there at around 78 under foot that will enjoy the bumps, but chances are it has just too much "sidecut".

So, become that guy. And If you happen to come across a pair of lonely, slightly-dated, Hart F17's or defunct Originators standing and waiting all day at the base of Mary Jane or A-Basin...feel free to borrow them for a joy ride. They are likely mine and I got 'em for a steal...

 

[Philpug]

What @skiii said..another option is it find some junior/super junior GS skis and removed the plates amd mount up the Look Pivot's on them. Oh and mount 2-3cm forward of the traditional mount point.

 

[James]

So you want a pair of basketball shoes that you can use for occasional tennis match, or to go for a 5k run in...
You would like a decent carbon road bike that you can occasionally take on a trail- one that you can leave locked to a parking meter for a couple hours with a cable...
You play 3rd base but you are the backup catcher- and it isn't softball...

Sorry, you need a quiver.

I'm in your same boat as I still live for the zipper line when conditions are in my favor and my legs are fresh, and competition bump skis are too stiff. I am now that guy...who lugs his mogul skis +1 pair to the base. More often than not, all day they also serve: they stand and wait.

Although I have been pleasantly shocked at the actual versatility of recent-vintage "all-mountain" lines (Atomic Vantage 90; Fischer pro mtn 86; etc.) which carve quite well, don't chatter on a little schuss, and still float due to their very low swing weight- "honeycomb", mesh, etc. in the tips- there really is no way (at least for me) to use even an 80-width ski to my satisfaction in bumps. Yes, Plake may have looked great on 220's as a young brave...but they were skinny.

The good news is that since you and I do not prefer a competition ski, we can shop around for a steal. (E.g., I bought the last pair of 4FRNT originator for $199 at closeout. I've yet to mount them.) Like for FIS racing skis, there is a very small market, and the real racers tend to want new. Used mogul skis may be more beat up- but maybe not, just too soft for competition. But chances are you can eventually find old models or closeouts.

I had the K2 Mamba (Cabrawler?)- tons of fun but a little too soft even for me at 150 lbs, late 50's. Demo'ed the Twisters and was actually going to get the 175's but I got...closed out. But even those and the softer Harts are really not much fun outside the zipper line. We are forever spoiled by the forgiveness at the new widths. Still, that Plake dude's wisdom still abides (even if I am ironically urging the purchase of a dedicated ski): there is nothing like a flying zipper line skier, knees together, head and shoulders locked on the fall line.

One strategy I have yet to try- I'd bet some here have- is to grab a good pair of 20-year-old skinny skis, maybe slalom <190cm, and see what happens. They stand and wait for chair retirement by the dozens at consignment shops for a song. As noted on another thread, Look Pivots and the Raichle>Full Tilt mold have lasted through decades of twists and turns. It's possible that there is an "all-mountain front side" ski out there at around 78 under foot that will enjoy the bumps, but chances are it has just too much "sidecut".

So, become that guy. And If you happen to come across a pair of lonely, slightly-dated, Hart F17's or defunct Originators standing and waiting all day at the base of Mary Jane or A-Basin...feel free to borrow them for a joy ride. They are likely mine and I got 'em for a steal...

Call Forerunner Sports in Killington, VT. It's the shop for mogul skis. Ask for Brian. He's likely to have something used.

 

[skiii]

What @skiii said..another option is it find some junior/super junior GS skis and removed the plates amd mount up the Look Pivot's on them. Oh and mount 2-3cm forward of the traditional mount point.

Interesting, I happen to have a pair lying around, but at 165 (still w/ the junior bindings). I take it you have tried this?

 

[Philpug]

Interesting, I happen to have a pair lying around, but at 165 (still w/ the junior bindings). I take it you have tried this?

When hart came back to skiing about a decade ago, the F17 was a relabeled Blossom GS ski.. Yes, I have played with a few.

 

[skiii]

When hart came back to skiing about a decade ago, the F17 was a relabeled Blossom GS ski.. Yes, I have played with a few.

Interesting- hey, speed is 25%, and stiffer and straighter is generally faster...not to mention stiffer may even be safer at speed...

Quick question: it just so happens I have come across a pair of very lightly-used F17 WC's from about 2014, mounted with the Looks at 8-18. I almost never go higher than 9 DIN. I haven't pre-released in many years- granted I am quick to bail out in the bumps these days. Will the Looks be OK at 9?

Thanks

 

[James]

Will the Looks be OK at 9?

Yes. I ski that P18 at 8 or 8.5
The "middle of the range" thing is a myth.

I [Cody Townsend] also had the lead engineer for this project dispel the myth that bindings work better in the mid-range of their DIN better than at the edges. So for the SHIFT, I've been at 13 and have gained nothing but confidence on them.

 

[Philpug]

Interesting- hey, speed is 25%, and stiffer and straighter is generally faster...not to mention stiffer may even be safer at speed...

Quick question: it just so happens I have come across a pair of very lightly-used F17 WC's from about 2014, mounted with the Looks at 8-18. I almost never go higher than 9 DIN. I haven't pre-released in many years- granted I am quick to bail out in the bumps these days. Will the Looks be OK at 9?

Thanks

What @James said.

 

[crgildart]

The best bump skier on our team back in the day, and a USSA National U18 Champion didn't use the Olin Mark IVs. He used Mark VI or VII depending on the course size and bump spacing. GS skis for bigger terrain courses out east and west and SL skis for shorter courses like we had in Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan USSA Central.

 

[Tekweezle]

Dumb question... What's the best position for mounting bindings on Mogul skis? Forward, center or rear? What effect if any does it have? Does having a plate on the the binding(like in the case of a racing/carving ski) have an adverse effects?

Thanks again

 

[crgildart]

There are no dumb questions, only dumb answers. Mount depends on the ski, but forward some is better for most, especially when considering the air aspect. Centered would be too far though as the tails catch, but more forward than most traditional ski mounts I would guess. Ask the Forerunner techs for the best answer based on current pro preferences.

 

[skiii]

Yes. I ski that P18 at 8 or 8.5
The "middle of the range" thing is a myth.

Thanks that's a big help. I've only read this myth on the intertubes...never heard it from a retailer or shop. Yes, Look is a brand leader in the business for decades. That doesn't mean their quality control can't rust like any other big name manufacturer's, but when they sell them at 8-18, I can trust that an in-house lawyer told them they need to be safe and functional at 8.0...

 

[skiii]

the best position for mounting bindings on Mogul skis? Forward, center or rear? What effect if any does it have? Does having a plate on the the binding(like in the case of a racing/carving ski) have an adverse effects?

My understanding is that the main purpose of the plate is to prevent booting out at extreme edge angles- think Ligety with his hips an inch off the snow. I suppose there is slight torque advantage at a height off the ski, but inevitable handling disadvantage. Maybe it helps lock the boot in place for control at high speeds?

In any event in the bumps one never needs such high angles and I've been told that the bit of "play" helps with absorption- much more important to mogul skiers. I believe plates are universally disfavored on mogul skis.

 

[skiii]

I would add to the above that whether to mount center- or forward, as recommended often for mogul skiing- may also depend on your size and ability, etc. About 6 years ago I was looking for a pair, and I noticed that Hart was back in the game. I called customer service and the CEO answered and spoke to me for a half hour. Of course, this is a leading indicator of hard times for bump ski sales...

He told me to mount the Hart F17 Classic 1-2 CM forward of the mark- but I assume he factored in my vitals. I did not ask why Hart didn't just move the mark forward, since only mogul skiers would ever buy them. [Maybe they never bothered to move the mark from the GS model as per Philpug above. Or maybe they figured everyone would mount forward by habit, so they were counter-rotating. Or maybe the F17's go to 11...]

 

[CS2-6]

best position for mounting bindings on Mogul skis?

Wherever Brian at Forerunner tells you to mount them. Generally though, I think wherever the factory recommended line is. Moguls skis are stiff enough in the tail that you don't need to be closer to center, like you might want to be if you were making do with some soft all-mountain park skis. But I don't know nothin' 'bout nothin'.

plate on the the binding

After listening to those who know what they're talking about, the plate does nothing for you that you want in the bumps. In fact, Pivot bindings (the go-to for bump skiing) are exactly opposite from a plate: close to the running surface, allow more natural flex, etc.)

 

[James]

. I did not ask why Hart didn't just move the mark forward, since only mogul skiers would ever buy them.

Because it's hart. I don't think Hart is like that, but they're a Japanese company.
Look at it this way, some of their non mogul skis for awhile were 3cm too far back. With hart it's 1cm forward and 3 back. Till you hit the tail then disappear.

Btw," hart" is the US company. Capital 'H' is the Japanese company with the same name. Separate and not equal.
Why? Because it's h/Hart. Idk. Everything about hart is hard and sad.
<--- US

 

[skiii]

Btw," hart" is the US company. Capital 'H' is the Japanese company with the same name.

Thanks for that detail. I will assume that any legal action to clear the confusion would wipe out several years' profit from mogul ski sales. I spoke to Johann, whom one might assume would overuse capitals, like STFUD.

I don't know why they are apparently getting crushed by ID One (a.k. "ID one"; "IdOne"; etc.), or why Deneen broke off to try "Ascente"- but I have heard it said there is nothing price can't fix. I guess their fatter lines are not carving up market share either.

But I wish them well. Monopolies are not a good thing.