World Cup 2019/20 Season MEN

[James]

I would hope Ligety and Nyman would pull the plug after this season.

 

[Noodler]

I re-watched my recording of the GS taking note of the skiing style/technique of each of the top 10 racers in the second run. Then I watched a few of Hirscher's old runs of GS at BC. I'm surprised that there still isn't really any other racers that look like Hirscher and are copying his racing technique. You would think that everyone would be killing themselves to duplicate his skiing, but I guess it's just not easy (or possible?). What am I missing?

 

[Muleski]

I would hope Ligety and Nyman would pull the plug after this season.

Nyman's main value is almost as a player-coach. His skiing is not what it was, or close. Ranked in the twenties in DH. Good guy, very, very well liked. And he knows every hill very well, which even the USST Speed coaching group is still learning.

Ligety is ranked the teens in GS. Again, a good guy, really well liked. We'll see what happens over the next month. Soelden and Beaver Creek still can work with his skiing. The Euro classics might be a different animal, particularly if his back acts up.

One of the problems is that these guys are in a nice financial position as skiers. Good ski contracts of both, other equipment and sponsorship contracts. Of course Ted owns SHRED. But this is a lot different that retiring 20 years ago, as the top guys make a lot of money, and it does not tend to get cut back as you age, as long as you are still racing.

I think they both should call it quits. I actually though that Johno McBride had convinced Steven to flip to a coaching role a couple of years ago. Didn't happen.

 

[4ster]

You would think that everyone would be killing themselves to duplicate his skiing, but I guess it's just not easy (or possible?).

No one skied like Bode either & I don't think many tried to. Granted, Hirscher was much more consistent & probably more coachable but like Bode, Marcel knew what was fast for Marcel. Both were on a whole other level & I agree with you that it is probably not possible to duplicate.

 

[James]

Besides different body types, there’s a whole history of how people grew up skiing. You don’t suddenly shift the universe of muscle reaction.
Also, Mikaela is Mikaela because of the whole package of technique, training, mindset, temperament, support system, response to coaching, etc.
Imagine Mikaela with Bode’s brain! She’d have half the wins and some spectacular crashes.

It also might be hard to say exactly why Hirscher was faster than say HK. We’re talking like 1% or less difference. People are always pontificating this or that is the reason he’s faster. Usually it’s technique based that conveniently fulfills their aims of showing what they want to show in other areas.

While it’s convenient to say it’s because of his technique that you like the looks of, the clock doesn’t care, and the difference might lie in mindset, determination, even ability to remember the course. Or be better at recovering from mistakes that throw others completely off. How many times did we see Hirscher make a ridiculous recovery and get back on rhythm in one gate?

Lindsey skied in an era which saw many in psia obsessed with parallel shins. She’s an a framer extraordinaire. So, I guess we can’t use her as an example. Yet she was winning. A lot.

Bode showed winning at the highest level with technique many described as appalling. With a different mindset, that appalling technique could have achieved a lot more podiums.

 

[Tom Holtmann]

I would hope Ligety and Nyman would pull the plug after this season.

Not sure why everyone is so eager to get rid of these two. If the US was Austria or Switzerland and had tons of young racers that were just as good sure - but seems like these guys perform as well or better than the younger guys on the team. My guess is the decision regarding whether to hang around will depend on family, health and competitiveness. If they are good on all three of those why not stay around and make good money in the short period you have where you can earn it as a pro. If their injuries keep coming back or they are embarrassing themselves on the hill or their family says enough is enough then sure pull the plug. But none of those seem to be true right now at least in the small sample we have this year.

 

[Moose32]

Still super early, but here is quick picture of the Hahnenkamm's Mausefalle and Hausberg turn from a couple days ago when skiing in Kitzbühel for the weekend (had a Friday meeting in Munich).
DH (80th) slated to run Jan 25, 2020.

 

[Muleski]

Not sure why everyone is so eager to get rid of these two. If the US was Austria or Switzerland and had tons of young racers that were just as good sure - but seems like these guys perform as well or better than the younger guys on the team. My guess is the decision regarding whether to hang around will depend on family, health and competitiveness. If they are good on all three of those why not stay around and make good money in the short period you have where you can earn it as a pro. If their injuries keep coming back or they are embarrassing themselves on the hill or their family says enough is enough then sure pull the plug. But none of those seem to be true right now at least in the small sample we have this year.

I think the issue is "the decision regarding whether to hang around.....", and how that plays into the entire USST Alpine program. Development through the various one person teams that we have on the WC. Who's decision is it to stick with it, and what factors are involved? At what point does your performance decline to the point where the resources that you use are disproportionately large? The USST does not seem to have the resources to allocate to athletes that frankly a nonprofit of it's size should. Our NGB is not funded by the government. The funding and budget of the Austrians, the Swiss and others is very different. A lot of government money. And, we can't deny that it is their national sport.

In our current situation, we have stated that our goal is Project 26. To field a team that will be dominant at the 2026 OWG's. OK, though I don't agree, I do understand the concept, did see the stake go into the ground, and do see some of the exceptional young skiers coming along who may get the USST there. However, at the same time, the decision to retire from the USST, even if you can still perform "near the top....even if it is a big drop from YOUR previous peak" is yours as an athlete.

In past years, it might have been suggested, or even agreed to, that the end was here. LV's career ended due to injury. Mancuso's did as well, though there was remarkable denial as to when it really had ended, and she took up a roster spot, funding, etc....which also enabled her to keep getting paid by all of her hard goods suppliers...for at least a couple of years. She was a physical wreck before she really was forced to admit it.

Bode milked it for a while. Ted Ligety was, and is a LEGEND in the sport. He derives a lot of income from the sport, including a huge deal from Head. A deal that he signed at his peak. Steven Nyman has been a really solid speed skier {despite starting as a JWC SL gold medalist}, and he's had a good career. This is is 19th WC season, I think. He has had 11 WC podiums, and three WC wins....all at Val Gardena. 7 of the 11 podium have been there, and at Beaver Creek. I know that from conversation over the weekend. He will turn 38 soon. Does he still have it? Will he past this current season?

Both of these guys have had back problems. Bad back problems. They travel the circuit with their kids, and families. Neat experience. Ted had decided to race just GS this season {I have no idea where the SG start at BC came from...nostalgia?}. Steven will primarily race just DH, and a few SG's. Ted has his own "team"....coach, assistant, tech, physio. Alex Martin, the tech, is paid by Head. The cost to support Ligety is big. Nobody, NOBODY, denies that he is a great guy. And Steven is one of the most well liked guys, and classiest guys on the WC. In other sports, though, it's done and over at some point. I have a couple of NHL friends, Hall of Fame players, and they really did not and could not hang around.

I would much rather look to the future. Perhaps those Ligety coaching resources need to go to some younger guys, like a River Radamus, Luke Winters, Brian McLaughlin? Maybe Nyman would be an all world coach for Sam Morse? Maybe some of that happens over the summer.

To me it's about the goals, present and future, and the resources. I wish that the team could do BOTH well.

Now...resources. Mikaela has her own team. I believe that she even has her own press officer who travels with her, as LV did. I don't know of she has a chef. I can't even add up the people in her current group. And it is ALL
for her. I saw her training a couple of weeks ago at Aspen. Had the entire venue to herself. There is no mentoring, no sharing. If there is, it's strictly on Instagram.

So the issue that is brewing, that nobody in the USST ranks is willing to address, is whether the USST needs to pour all these resources into her, or whether she and her business might actually fund some of it...or have her sponsors fund more of it. It could be that Redbull is funding a bit. Nothing like they did with LV. The fact is that MS would have NO career, and would not be the highest paid athlete in the sport, were in not for the USST. Now agents and advisors have a nice way of convincing the USST, along with NBC, that there would be NO USST, or not one that anybody cares about, were there no MS, so the USST should feel fortunate to be able to fund this and have her in a USST uniform.

Let's flip back to the Austrians. Hircher retired, and they do not have this issue. Maier retired and walked away. Eberharter retired when he was still damn good. All of them seemed to transition well without hanging on, on the roster. And some get dropped. I do not know what the Swiss are doing with Lara Gut. True, she has been injured and is making a long recovery. But she also has a big change in her personal life. And there is a lot of questioning about her drive and commitment. How much does she care? How hard is she working? How much money would she continue to earn if she were NOT an active member of the team? In her case, she has always been very, very "difficult." Very demanding. Cute, beautiful, captivating smile for the camera. Brutal and screaming away from it. I can't comment as to why they tolerate it. Her contract probably stipulates that she is on that team as long as she wants if her world ranking is at a certain level, or more likely since she is a WC overall winner, as long as she wants. And the top dogs at Head have loved her since the minute that they signed her. She, too, has a BIG deal. And probably will forever.

One factor is that the total money in the sport has increased, a bit. Forget prize money, that's icing on the cake. I'm talking the big ski deals. BUT, the percentage of WC skiers with ski deals has drastically gone down. I recall about 15 years ago when a friend made the USST B team and without even asking was handed a $50K contract from her ski company. Today, there is NO chance that a skier at her level would earn a check. Back in the day, way back in the day when the sport was alleged to be "amateur", we had athletes like Killy and Schranz making some money. Today, we have the superstars: HK, Pintu, MS, etc. making a LOT of money. And people starting 40th in a WC making none. Look at the other contracts for MS: Barilla, Logines, Adidas, etc. That skier staring 40th might have a $5K deal with a headgear sponsor. MS's deal....wow.

So.......why "hang it up", if you can keep this income stream going? For some it's going to dry up fast and furious when it ends. For the rare ones, like MS and Ted, it should go up. I would imagine that it is going way up for LV. Steven Nyman? Dunno. Somebody like Tommy Biesemeyer, who has been on the WC for 10 years, and has never cracked the top 10? He has been an up and comer, destined for greatness, since he was about 14. He's had some injuries, and tough luck. How has he performed? Does HE make the decision to hang around as long as "he meets criteria." I have no idea what his future holds. Family business?

I get real tired of hearing the generic interviews" Yeah...had some good skiing today..some good sections....but a couple of mistakes. Need to clean up a couple of things that I've been working on. Been working on the setup and that's all good. Yeah...I'm pretty happy." This can often be from a guy who has had 100+ WC starts, and was many seconds out. Maybe I expect more. Maybe I'm too harsh.

These guys are not embarrassing anybody, are not at the back of the pack, and they still flash moments of incredible brilliance and ski sections, or runs, REALLY well. But they are clearly on the last couple of holes of the back nine. That's why I like to see skiers move on before they really are embarrassing themselves.

I have enormous admiration for Hirscher. As I did for Killy, when I was old enough to understood his decision. And there are many others. But the income swing to the very top group, ski related income, is now a big factor. It's what astonished me about Bode walking away from Head and actually investing in Bomber. That's a big bet.

Today, on the USST, you can absolutely hang on. And even with late in career, almost certain career ending injuries, you can hang on longer. And if hanging on takes up USST resources, they are resources that could be used elsewhere. Should you be loyal to the old guard, or look to the future, if you can't afford to do BOTH? It is a tough decision. I think that people who advocate for the old guard do no realize what a mess USST development is in.

Not a big believer or fan of Project 26, but you can't drive toward that and keep a large a stable of aging athletes. Another question, is what should the expectations be for continual progress in your results as you become more experienced and older? If you were once high potential, but plateau at kind of not great, is that good enough? How long is a plateau? How high is it? It's not easy because some who might be in that category are still top 30 every now and then, scoring some WC points. That would be great for an up and comer. At some point with others, you expect more. How many years without a second run in tech events, etc.? Tough decisions as they all tend to be good people.

Just my $.02. There are a TON of varying opinions when it comes to this stuff. Even on the USST board.

 

[Moose32]

There are a TON of varying opinions when it comes to this stuff. Even on the USST board.

Nice post. The "numbers" (of people who can do something) in ski racing (after 18 years old) continue to get smaller and smaller.
It's my take that anyone who won't eventually win a WC race or an Olympic medal would be best served making a quick run at the White Circus and then ensure they get a college education.
This will position them much better economically long-term - especially outside the ski racing bubble.
Is there a link to this USST board? Or is this private behind a security wall?

 

[S.H.]

Is there a link to this USST board? Or is this private behind a security wall?

Board of Directors

The U.S.

usskiandsnowboard.org

 

[Tom Holtmann]

I think the issue is "the decision regarding whether to hang around.....", and how that plays into the entire USST Alpine program. Development through the various one person teams that we have on the WC. Who's decision is it to stick with it, and what factors are involved? At what point does your performance decline to the point where the resources that you use are disproportionately large? The USST does not seem to have the resources to allocate to athletes that frankly a nonprofit of it's size should. Our NGB is not funded by the government. The funding and budget of the Austrians, the Swiss and others is very different. A lot of government money. And, we can't deny that it is their national sport.

In our current situation, we have stated that our goal is Project 26. To field a team that will be dominant at the 2026 OWG's. OK, though I don't agree, I do understand the concept, did see the stake go into the ground, and do see some of the exceptional young skiers coming along who may get the USST there. However, at the same time, the decision to retire from the USST, even if you can still perform "near the top....even if it is a big drop from YOUR previous peak" is yours as an athlete.

In past years, it might have been suggested, or even agreed to, that the end was here. LV's career ended due to injury. Mancuso's did as well, though there was remarkable denial as to when it really had ended, and she took up a roster spot, funding, etc....which also enabled her to keep getting paid by all of her hard goods suppliers...for at least a couple of years. She was a physical wreck before she really was forced to admit it.

Bode milked it for a while. Ted Ligety was, and is a LEGEND in the sport. He derives a lot of income from the sport, including a huge deal from Head. A deal that he signed at his peak. Steven Nyman has been a really solid speed skier {despite starting as a JWC SL gold medalist}, and he's had a good career. This is is 19th WC season, I think. He has had 11 WC podiums, and three WC wins....all at Val Gardena. 7 of the 11 podium have been there, and at Beaver Creek. I know that from conversation over the weekend. He will turn 38 soon. Does he still have it? Will he past this current season?

Both of these guys have had back problems. Bad back problems. They travel the circuit with their kids, and families. Neat experience. Ted had decided to race just GS this season {I have no idea where the SG start at BC came from...nostalgia?}. Steven will primarily race just DH, and a few SG's. Ted has his own "team"....coach, assistant, tech, physio. Alex Martin, the tech, is paid by Head. The cost to support Ligety is big. Nobody, NOBODY, denies that he is a great guy. And Steven is one of the most well liked guys, and classiest guys on the WC. In other sports, though, it's done and over at some point. I have a couple of NHL friends, Hall of Fame players, and they really did not and could not hang around.

I would much rather look to the future. Perhaps those Ligety coaching resources need to go to some younger guys, like a River Radamus, Luke Winters, Brian McLaughlin? Maybe Nyman would be an all world coach for Sam Morse? Maybe some of that happens over the summer.

To me it's about the goals, present and future, and the resources. I wish that the team could do BOTH well.

Now...resources. Mikaela has her own team. I believe that she even has her own press officer who travels with her, as LV did. I don't know of she has a chef. I can't even add up the people in her current group. And it is ALL
for her. I saw her training a couple of weeks ago at Aspen. Had the entire venue to herself. There is no mentoring, no sharing. If there is, it's strictly on Instagram.

So the issue that is brewing, that nobody in the USST ranks is willing to address, is whether the USST needs to pour all these resources into her, or whether she and her business might actually fund some of it...or have her sponsors fund more of it. It could be that Redbull is funding a bit. Nothing like they did with LV. The fact is that MS would have NO career, and would not be the highest paid athlete in the sport, were in not for the USST. Now agents and advisors have a nice way of convincing the USST, along with NBC, that there would be NO USST, or not one that anybody cares about, were there no MS, so the USST should feel fortunate to be able to fund this and have her in a USST uniform.

Let's flip back to the Austrians. Hircher retired, and they do not have this issue. Maier retired and walked away. Eberharter retired when he was still damn good. All of them seemed to transition well without hanging on, on the roster. And some get dropped. I do not know what the Swiss are doing with Lara Gut. True, she has been injured and is making a long recovery. But she also has a big change in her personal life. And there is a lot of questioning about her drive and commitment. How much does she care? How hard is she working? How much money would she continue to earn if she were NOT an active member of the team? In her case, she has always been very, very "difficult." Very demanding. Cute, beautiful, captivating smile for the camera. Brutal and screaming away from it. I can't comment as to why they tolerate it. Her contract probably stipulates that she is on that team as long as she wants if her world ranking is at a certain level, or more likely since she is a WC overall winner, as long as she wants. And the top dogs at Head have loved her since the minute that they signed her. She, too, has a BIG deal. And probably will forever.

One factor is that the total money in the sport has increased, a bit. Forget prize money, that's icing on the cake. I'm talking the big ski deals. BUT, the percentage of WC skiers with ski deals has drastically gone down. I recall about 15 years ago when a friend made the USST B team and without even asking was handed a $50K contract from her ski company. Today, there is NO chance that a skier at her level would earn a check. Back in the day, way back in the day when the sport was alleged to be "amateur", we had athletes like Killy and Schranz making some money. Today, we have the superstars: HK, Pintu, MS, etc. making a LOT of money. And people starting 40th in a WC making none. Look at the other contracts for MS: Barilla, Logines, Adidas, etc. That skier staring 40th might have a $5K deal with a headgear sponsor. MS's deal....wow.

So.......why "hang it up", if you can keep this income stream going? For some it's going to dry up fast and furious when it ends. For the rare ones, like MS and Ted, it should go up. I would imagine that it is going way up for LV. Steven Nyman? Dunno. Somebody like Tommy Biesemeyer, who has been on the WC for 10 years, and has never cracked the top 10? He has been an up and comer, destined for greatness, since he was about 14. He's had some injuries, and tough luck. How has he performed? Does HE make the decision to hang around as long as "he meets criteria." I have no idea what his future holds. Family business?

I get real tired of hearing the generic interviews" Yeah...had some good skiing today..some good sections....but a couple of mistakes. Need to clean up a couple of things that I've been working on. Been working on the setup and that's all good. Yeah...I'm pretty happy." This can often be from a guy who has had 100+ WC starts, and was many seconds out. Maybe I expect more. Maybe I'm too harsh.

These guys are not embarrassing anybody, are not at the back of the pack, and they still flash moments of incredible brilliance and ski sections, or runs, REALLY well. But they are clearly on the last couple of holes of the back nine. That's why I like to see skiers move on before they really are embarrassing themselves.

I have enormous admiration for Hirscher. As I did for Killy, when I was old enough to understood his decision. And there are many others. But the income swing to the very top group, ski related income, is now a big factor. It's what astonished me about Bode walking away from Head and actually investing in Bomber. That's a big bet.

Today, on the USST, you can absolutely hang on. And even with late in career, almost certain career ending injuries, you can hang on longer. And if hanging on takes up USST resources, they are resources that could be used elsewhere. Should you be loyal to the old guard, or look to the future, if you can't afford to do BOTH? It is a tough decision. I think that people who advocate for the old guard do no realize what a mess USST development is in.

Not a big believer or fan of Project 26, but you can't drive toward that and keep a large a stable of aging athletes. Another question, is what should the expectations be for continual progress in your results as you become more experienced and older? If you were once high potential, but plateau at kind of not great, is that good enough? How long is a plateau? How high is it? It's not easy because some who might be in that category are still top 30 every now and then, scoring some WC points. That would be great for an up and comer. At some point with others, you expect more. How many years without a second run in tech events, etc.? Tough decisions as they all tend to be good people.

Just my $.02. There are a TON of varying opinions when it comes to this stuff. Even on the USST board.
[

To me, Nyman and Ligety are far from hanging on. They are competitive this year - more than most of the team (who knows by the end of the year). If the current team members are taking up resources then in my mind it is a no brainer to want Ligety and Nyman to stay around as long as they are putting up results. They are great guys, they are well known (which promotes the sport in the US) and they are still producing. I can tell you for sure that the WTA and ATP want Serena Williams and Roger Federer to keep playing. Patriot fans I would imagine are happy Brady is "hanging on". Now if they fall off to third or fourth on the squad in their disciplines then sure - keep the late twenties, early thirty guys that are performing better but that just isn't the case right now. So if the USST really wants to take resources from these two and keep the guys running third and fourth now well shame on them.

 

[Primoz]

It's my take that anyone who won't eventually win a WC race or an Olympic medal would be best served making a quick run at the White Circus and then ensure they get a college education.This will position them much better economically long-term - especially outside the ski racing bubble.

Realistically... even if you win Olympic medal (winning single WC race won't bring you even house), you better have some education. There's very very few people, who can live for rest of their life just from skiing results.... and 2 (Maier and Hirscher) out of let's say 3 (Lindsey) or 4 (honestly 4th one doesn't come to my mind anymore) are from Austria, where people are obsessed with skiing (and only skiing, as there's really no other sport in Austria). Jules won a race or two, and she got Olympic medal or two, yet if I saw that right and if I remember that right, there was some charity stuff going on for her hip operation few years back. Considering hip operation doesn't cost several millions, you can conclude from that, how much money she actually got left out of skiing.... year or two after she finished, not 50 years after that.
So on long run, I would say even if you win Olympics, you will still need to work pretty damn hard to survive for rest of your life once you finish skiing. Start will be easier, but no matter what result won't give you money for rest of your life.

 

[James]

Serena, Federer, Brady - all still playing at the top of the sport. Federer had two match points at Wimbledon, he’s #3 behind another two historic players. Brady is going to the playoffs again even with like one good receiver. Serena went to the finals at Wimbledon and the US Open.

Ligety hasn’t been at the top in 4 years.
Nyman would be more like Sam Querry.

Ligety’s Wcup points:

LIGETY Ted - Athlete Information

www.fis-ski.com

 

[Tom Holtmann]

Realistically... even if you win Olympic medal (winning single WC race won't bring you even house), you better have some education. There's very very few people, who can live for rest of their life just from skiing results.... and 2 (Maier and Hirscher) out of let's say 3 (Lindsey) or 4 (honestly 4th one doesn't come to my mind anymore) are from Austria, where people are obsessed with skiing (and only skiing, as there's really no other sport in Austria). Jules won a race or two, and she got Olympic medal or two, yet if I saw that right and if I remember that right, there was some charity stuff going on for her hip operation few years back. Considering hip operation doesn't cost several millions, you can conclude from that, how much money she actually got left out of skiing.... year or two after she finished, not 50 years after that.
So on long run, I would say even if you win Olympics, you will still need to work pretty damn hard to survive for rest of your life once you finish skiing. Start will be easier, but no matter what result won't give you money for rest of your life.

4 - Bode

 

[Muleski]

BTW, @Tom Holtmann. The words "the decision regarding whether to hang around" were your words.

My point is that it is their decision. Which is is somewhat unique to this sport, and this country. I also wanted to frame up the fact that "Project 26" is a big, big deal. If you were to ask Tiger Shaw, in private "Who is more important to the USST, River Radamus or Ted Ligety", I'm not sure what the answer would be. And to be clear, I am no fan of Project 26. Or of measuring USST success by Olympic medals. Nor is everybody on that board.

If the only issue were living in the moment, sure, let them hang on. Nothing wrong with THIS year's performance. Is ted faster than River, RCS and BMac in GS? Yes. Will he maintain it next year, should he want to try? Who knows. He is a LEGEND, no debating that. And he will likely never see another WC podium. Maybe we'll know more after this weekend. I would love to be wrong as I really like Ted. And not as a fan "like."

We're not just talking about their results, or I'm not. Back to the resources. I am pretty sure that if the same team supporting Ted were suddenly working with a few of the younger guys, you might see some big leaps. It's been shown to be the case before. VERY clearly a few years ago when MS had to share, before Eileen pitched a fit, ultimately leading to the best tech coach in the country quitting. Worked well for MS, derailed two other very promising careers. Best not to beat MS in training.

This issue of resources and where they go is big. And THREE years ago you had the USST program director telling guys with WC starts, in USST uniforms that "River is THE future of the USST." I'm not advocating this, I'm just telling it like it is.

Steven Nyman is a great guy. GREAT guy Not sure how much his is promoting skiing in the USA. Outside of a tiny audience of race fans, maybe.

No need to prolong this debate.

 

[Tom Holtmann]

Serena, Federer, Brady - all still playing at the top of the sport. Federer had two match points at Wimbledon, he’s #3 behind another two historic players. Brady is going to the playoffs again even with like one good receiver. Serena went to the finals at Wimbledon and the US Open.

Ligety hasn’t been at the top in 4 years.
Nyman would be more like Sam Querry.

Ligety’s Wcup points:
View attachment 87071

LIGETY Ted - Athlete Information

www.fis-ski.com

[/QUOTE

Serena is currently #10 in the world, Brady is currently #12 in QB rating in the NFL, Ligety is currently ranked #7 in the world in GS. Sure Nyman probably is Sam Querry. No one is arguing that Ligety is as competitive as Federer. The point is right now besides Tommy Ford and Ligety everyone on the team is Sam Querry at best. Maybe I'm crazy but I think Ligety had a real chance to podium this weekend and that was exciting. So my 2 cents are that if those guys are healthy and skiing like they are now I hope they hang on for the World Championships next year. That would be cool. If there are some crazy talented 16 year olds that are being held back by fielding a team well that is a sad state of affairs that bodes poorly for the future US team.

PS. I like watching Sam Querry

 

[Tom Holtmann]

BTW, @Tom Holtmann. The words "the decision regarding whether to hang around" were your words.

My point is that it is their decision. Which is is somewhat unique to this sport, and this country. I also wanted to frame up the fact that "Project 26" is a big, big deal. If you were to ask Tiger Shaw, in private "Who is more important to the USST, River Radamus or Ted Ligety", I'm not sure what the answer would be. And to be clear, I am no fan of Project 26. Or of measuring USST success by Olympic medals. Nor is everybody on that board.

If the only issue were living in the moment, sure, let them hang on. Nothing wrong with THIS year's performance. Is ted faster than River, RCS and BMac in GS? Yes. Will he maintain it next year, should he want to try? Who knows. He is a LEGEND, no debating that. And he will likely never see another WC podium. Maybe we'll know more after this weekend. I would love to be wrong as I really like Ted. And not as a fan "like."

We're not just talking about their results, or I'm not. Back to the resources. I am pretty sure that if the same team supporting Ted were suddenly working with a few of the younger guys, you might see some big leaps. It's been shown to be the case before. VERY clearly a few years ago when MS had to share, before Eileen pitched a fit, ultimately leading to the best tech coach in the country quitting. Worked well for MS, derailed two other very promising careers. Best not to beat MS in training.

This issue of resources and where they go is big. And THREE years ago you had the USST program director telling guys with WC starts, in USST uniforms that "River is THE future of the USST." I'm not advocating this, I'm just telling it like it is.

Steven Nyman is a great guy. GREAT guy Not sure how much his is promoting skiing in the USA. Outside of a tiny audience of race fans, maybe.

No need to prolong this debate.

BTW @Muleski - you are correct. Those are my words. I was responding to the words "pull the plug" and "they should both quit" which were words used before I posted anything. Anway, I learned alot from your posts about the USST so thanks.

 

[Muleski]

4 - Bode

Guessing you are not too close to that one. A hunch. People close to him are VERY concerned that he'll looking at a drastic lifestyle change as the picture, the spending and the "numbers" do not add up. $2Mil in yacht purchases, with about $500K in annual yard bills for them.....and minimal charter income. That's one example.

He rented a house on Nantucket a couple of summers ago, next to a friend of ours. I think he paid $100K for two weeks. That's rarified air. My friend earns about $500K a week. He can afford his house. Bode? Not really sure what he is earning. That's a lot of money for what is effectively a fancy Airbnb rental!

A ski example? Lowell, his agent, begged him NOT to make the Bomber deal. Not because he felt there was no upside with Bomber {he was not sold on it} but because of what Bode was giving up with Head. Johan Eliasch, the principal owner and CEO of Head loves his athletes, and he takes care of them in retirement. Cuche is a great example. Bode was looking at letting his multi million dollar contract run out for a year, and I have heard that he had a personal services contract on the table that would pay him in the range of $500K a year {perhaps more to start}, for about 20 days of pretty fun appearances. To run for decades. Play golf at Pebble, show up at an ATP event, appear at Kitz, the OWG's, WCF's. Fly in on Eilasch's plane, bring the family. Good deal. Balance that with writing checks to float Bomber and perhaps lose it all. Maybe it will work out. Clothing? He had a nice deal with Kjus. It was very nice, as the deal with Spyder that it replaced was a great one. Nope, I want to be an owner with Aztech. OK. perhaps we'll see that one take off. Or not. Not spinning off income now.

At least his latest deal in Big Sky is a good one for him and his family. Very glad to see that.

I share a few close friends with Bode. Bode has always loved to make money and was tight as hell with a buck, described as cheap. He is stubborn as hell and effectively listens to nobody. Friends feel that the cheapness all changed when he bought the first yacht, and started his relationship with Morgan, and was just enamored. The good news is that they seem to have an incredibly solid relationship, though their tragedy, etc.

Don't look at LV, and her social media lifestyle, and assume that somehow Bode has her resources. He absolutely does NOT. Again, people who have some insight just don't think this adds up....unless Morgan has banked and earned a great deal more money that these folks assume. LV has had incredible representation, and I assume some real pro's handling all of her financial picture. As one example, I am pretty aware of a few real estate deals where LV has made a killing. I'm aware of two with Bode where he lost abut $3Mil. It all adds up on the money in, and money out sides.

Some racers come form really wealthy families, and it makes post skiing easy. Bode is not one of them.

Just saw this one posted above by @Tom Holtmann:

"Serena is currently #10 in the world, Brady is currently #12 in QB rating in the NFL, Ligety is currently ranked #7 in the world in GS. Sure Nyman probably is Sam Querry. No one is arguing that Ligety is as competitive as Federer. The point is right now besides Tommy Ford and Ligety everyone on the team is Sam Querry at best. Maybe I'm crazy but I think Ligety had a real chance to podium this weekend and that was exciting. So my 2 cents are that if those guys are healthy and skiing like they are now I hope they hang on for the World Championships next year. That would be cool. If there are some crazy talented 16 year olds that are being held back by fielding a team well that is a sad state of affairs that bodes poorly for the future US team."

It's not the 16 year olds, though we did have a 16 year old join the USST this past summer. It's those who show tremendous potential and are gaining, but don't have the same "support." Ted has earned it. It really made Ted the legend he was. Ted became the best GS skier in large part because he had the best skis. Period. In the words of a WC friend "They were REALLY F***ING IMPORTANT." My son was part of a small group that tested skis one summer for Ted. They arrived in NZ to find two shipping containers full of 400+ pairs of GS skis. He has one of the best tech's in the business. This all matters.

He has had the USST's best coach....to himself. And has had the best assistant in the past.

I don't know what else to say. The young guys who are clearly on a steep trajectory upwards do not have it the same. Brian McLaughlin is a Head guy. His boots are not 100% custom, in terms of the clogs and cuffs being custom made in their own molds. Maybe Ted is in the Rossi boot. I have not heard that. His skis are not custom made for his purpose in terms of shape, layup, etc. Ted has used a plate on his GS skis that no other Head athlete could use. It was a HUGE issue when Pintu went to Head. Only Ted.

So do you reward this forever? The USST is weaker right now with Ted circa 2019-2020 than it was certainly two years ago. If the team performance is to improve, the younger guys need the the support: in every respect. This are not also rans.....when there are rare time trials that Ted skis, they OFTEN beat him.

Ted is ranked #14 on the latest FIS list that came out on 12/9. His ranking keeps dropping {as in gets worse}.

This is really indisputable. As many of you know, I reach a point on these threads where I'm out on a point of discussion. I'm there. We've drifted this too much, and I'm part of it!

Looking forward to the weekend. A classic!

Back to reach discussion....WC Men!

 

[Moose32]

Realistically... even if you win Olympic medal (winning single WC race won't bring you even house), you better have some education.

Agree. It's not like say Andrew Weibrecht doesn't have to worry about making a living. He just needs to decide does he do it running the family Inn or finish his Dartmouth degree and go corporate.
But to see people chase NorAm and WC starts until they are 30 with no education is a big mistake,

 

[Moose32]

My friend earns about $500K a week.

Ok, I'll bite. Broadly, what does your friend do for a living to earn $26M a year?