Women's Soccer World Cup 2019

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Yeah, the US Men’s team is just a marketing bonanza here. :rolleyes: The big exception being Pulisic, though in the US he suffers from the disdain for the men’s team after the 2018 wcup failure.

The men’s team always draws a lot when they play Mexico and the South American teams. There’s more fans rooting for Mexico than the US. I think the women don’t get that largely due to the total lack of tradition and respect for women’s teams in those countries. Brazil might be somewhat of an exception.
 
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Jacob

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Christian Pulisic says hi. Chelsea just paid a $73 millon transfer fee to get him from Borussia Dortmund. There are about 34 men on the USMNT roster playing in Europe.



The MLS exists to make money and they seem to be doing that with the current schedule.



The global draw is greater for the men's game vs the women's game. The 9 NWSL teams averaged 6024/game in 2018. The 24 MLS teams have averaged over 20K since 2015. Then consider all the USMNT roster players in Europe. The US men also draw more per match in the US vs the US women. There is a difference.

Here’s the 2018 USMNT attendance for home matches:

1/28/18 – Friendly – USA vs. Bosnia & Herzegovina – StubHub Center – 11,161
3/27/18
– Friendly – USA vs. Paraguay – WakeMed Soccer Park – 9,825
5/28/18
– Friendly – USA vs. Bolivia – Talen Energy Stadium – 11,882
9/7/18
– Friendly – USA vs. Brazil – MetLife Stadium – 32,489
9/11/18
– Friendly – USA vs. Mexico – Nissan Stadium – 40,194
10/11/18
– Friendly – USA vs. Colombia – Raymond James Stadium – 38,631
10/16/18
– Friendly – USA vs. Peru – Pratt & Whitney Stadium – 24,959

• Total Attendance: 169,141
• Average Attendance: 24,163
https://worldsoccertalk.com/2018/12/12/usmnt-average-attendance-2018-worst-since-2006/

Here are the attendance figures for the USWNT in 2018:

1/21/18 – Friendly – USA vs. Denmark – SDCCU Stadium – 17,526
3/1/18
– She Believes Cup – USA vs. Germany – Mapfre Stadium – 14,591
3/4/18
– She Believes Cup – USA vs. France – Red Bull Arena – 25,706
3/7/18
– She Believes Cup – USA vs. England – Orlando City Stadium – 12,351
4/5/18
– Friendly – USA vs. Mexico – TIAA Bank Field – 14,360
4/8/18
– Friendly – USA vs. Mexico – BBVA Compass Stadium – 15,349
6/7/18
– Friendly – USA vs. China – Rio Tinto Stadium – 13,230
6/12/18
– Friendly – USA vs. China – First Energy Stadium – 12,335
7/26/18
– Tournament of Nations – USA vs. Japan – Children’s Mercy Park – 18,467
7/29/18
– Tournament of Nations – USA vs. Australia – Pratt & Whitney Stadium – 21,570
8/2/18
– Tournament of Nations – USA vs. Brazil – Toyota Park – 18,309
8/31/18
– Friendly – USA vs. Chile – StubHub Center – 23,544
9/4/18
– Friendly – USA vs. Chile – Avaya Stadium – 14,340
10/4/18
– Women’s World Cup qualifier – USA vs. Mexico – WakeMed Soccer Park – 5,404
10/7/18
– WWCQ – USA vs. Panama – WakeMed Soccer Park – 7,532
10/10/18
– WWCQ – USA vs. Trinidad & Tobago – WakeMed Soccer Park – 3,996
10/14/18
– WWCQ – USA vs. Jamaica – Toyota Stadium – 7,555
10/17/18
– WWCQ – USA vs. Canada – Toyota Stadium – 6,986

• Total Attendance: 253,151
• Average Attendance: 14,064
https://worldsoccertalk.com/2018/12/13/uswnt-average-attendance-declines-22-percent-in-2018/
Pulisic moved to Germany at 16 to play for Dortmund’s youth team. I’m not familiar with all of the details, but I wouldn’t be surprised to find that appearances for the U15 and U17 national teams, including the U17 World Cup, were what caught the eye of the scouts rather than his club play.

But for most guys in the US, moving to Europe at 16 and obtaining citizenship from an EU country based on a grandparent’s heritage in order to get around work permit requirements isn’t an option. They either impress with their MLS performances or their national team performances, and good performances against solid national teams are more impressive for European clubs than performances against MLS teams. Also, national team appearances are usually a requirement for non-EU players when applying for a work permit in order to play in European leagues.

I know the MLS is making money with the current schedule, but it’s also clashing with other events, which means it loses a number of its best players (not just the Americans) for some of its games. Maybe scheduling around these events would lead to them making more money.

As for the pay dispute, the global draw of men vs. women and the size of the leagues has nothing to do with it. The dispute is specifically about how much the USSF pays the women when they play for the national team compared to the men. And as the Wall Street Journal pointed out, in 2016-2018, even though the women’s team brought in more total revenue for the USSF than the men, they were paid significantly less.
 
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LuliTheYounger

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Yeah, the US Men’s team is just a marketing bonanza here. :rolleyes: The big exception being Pulisic, though in the US he suffers from the disdain for the men’s team after the 2018 wcup failure.

The men’s team always draws a lot when they play Mexico and the South American teams. There’s more fans rooting for Mexico than the US. I think the women don’t get that largely due to the total lack of tradition and respect for women’s teams in those countries. Brazil might be somewhat of an exception.
Lol - I almost feel like if the issue is that the USMNT won't show up without a pay check, you could pay a bunch of college kids $5 each to play MEXMNT in US jerseys and get basically the same ticket sales. It's not like the USMNT is a big ticket driver because of their uproarious success.

I get that the current attendance numbers are a reality, but it just seems like circular logic to say that the USMNT "needs" buckets of money for no results because of other countries' soccer culture, while our genuine standard-bearing team gets shortchanged because... other teams are failing at development? The US women's team has a unique development pool & a unique level of success, and imo it's kind of ridiculous to act like they should just be paid whatever's in line with some imaginary benchmark. We're the benchmark for everyone else, as far as I can tell.


^^^What he said. Most of the best US men are ALREADY earning big coin in Euroball. Definitely takes more $incentive$ to get them to commit to USNT play. Some of the women are too.. but again for much lower pay... so they're easier to pull in to the WNT. I guess the benefits are good enough so that the org can avoid paying them a fair wage.... kinda like ski instructors... a hobby that comes with cool benefits, not much of a viable career unless you're the ski school director... and that's because there are plenty of qualified or mostly qualified folks who will work part time for free skiing, employee parking, and gear storage lockers..
I think players in every league are aware that there's younger players behind them, but the federations get what they pay for. A "mostly qualified" national team is a team that's not worth anything, and it's not like we have 100 other Megan Rapinoes sitting around. With USSF getting dragged through the mud every other week & Hegerberg refusing to even step foot on an international pitch, I think it's pretty clear that the top teams aren't interested in playing for a plane ticket.
 
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Wilhelmson

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What's the answer, pay all U.S. team athletes the same? Might work. Lol I bet neither the men nor women want to get paid on commission. Diddly squat compared to the NCAA anyways.

Anecdotally, my dad went to Dick's to buy my daughter a U.S. soccer shirt and they didn't have anything. Big problem.
 

CalG

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Which brings us back to the equal pay issue where US men give up a bigger MSL paycheck to go play on the NT than US women give up to leave their pro team. So, USWNT can lure them over for a lower paycheck than UWMNT can. It's not so much about the international play revenues as it is about the US pro team pay disparity. But, it really should be about the national team revenues. Instead, it's the powers that be leveraging another pay disparity dynamic.

Isn't there a rule? A willing seller and a willing buyer determine worth....

Bottom line to me. I think there is a biblical passage to the same effect.

Pissing and moaning AFTER the agreement is cheap. If you don't like it, Don't go. Someone else will take the slot.
Entitlements are not very inspiring.
 

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Isn't there a rule? A willing seller and a willing buyer determine worth....

Bottom line to me. I think there is a biblical passage to the same effect.

Pissing and moaning AFTER the agreement is cheap. If you don't like it, Don't go. Someone else will take the slot.
Entitlements are not very inspiring.
It’s more like an employer giving two different contracts to different employees doing the same job, with the more successful employees getting paid much less than the less successful employees. Now, the more successful employees want to negotiate a new contract.

That is nothing new in the soccer world. Successful players regularly renegotiate new deals with their clubs, even when they still have a few years left on their contracts.

Why should the women be any different? Why should they get criticised for doing what men do all the time?
 

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It’s more like an employer giving two different contracts to different employees doing the same job, with the more successful employees getting paid much less than the less successful employees.

Sounds a lot like the teaching/coaching profession....lol
 

Bill Talbot

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Not to mention certain players are purely there (WC/Olympics) for their own self promotion and not for the purpose of representing the country they are
playing for. Just a world stage to sell it on. This is a huge difference from the earlier teams when there was little money at all.

With a couple of exceptions this years show by the WNT was actually disappointing at a few levels...
 

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Imagine if the roles were reversed, with the men earning a fraction of what the women are paid. And imagine that the men want to negotiate a new deal, pointing to the fact that they regularly bring in roughly the same amount of revenue for the USSF as the women.

Would anyone in America criticise them for wanting equal pay if they bring in the same amount of money for the organisation?
 

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Wow are going to also comment on how unfair Title IX is for men? How about how disastrous this individual was for Women's tennis? Did the sky fall in after they started getting the same prize money as men?
 

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Nobody who has money or control over money is just going to give it up, are they. You have to fight for it. I don't see how anyone who is getting paid by the government can possibly be paid differently based on gender..or race.. It's hugely discriminatory. I can't imagine anyone thinking otherwise..
 

SBrown

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Nobody who has money or control over money is just going to give it up, are they. You have to fight for it. I don't see how anyone who is getting paid by the government can possibly be paid differently based on gender..or race.. It's hugely discriminatory. I can't imagine anyone thinking otherwise..
I don't think anyone is being paid by the government? Anyway, I would dearly like to have an opinion on this, but I'm not really sure what to think yet. Did anyone post this?
https://www.si.com/soccer/2019/03/08/uswnt-lawsuit-us-soccer-equal-pay-cba-eeoc-gender-discrimination .
 

x10003q

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Nobody who has money or control over money is just going to give it up, are they. You have to fight for it. I don't see how anyone who is getting paid by the government can possibly be paid differently based on gender..or race.. It's hugely discriminatory. I can't imagine anyone thinking otherwise..
US Soccer Federation is a non profit organization and is not related in any way to the US government.

Once again, the men's game is way more popular than the women's game, even in the USA. If the men were earning what the women earn from their respective soccer leagues, the USSF would not have the pay the men more to play on the national team. Just to be clear, I have no problem with the women trying to negotiate better pay.
 
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From that SI article linked above.
——————-
“The players have also drawn explicit support from men's players, who seem to reject the idea that “market realities” ought to justify USSF not paying women players higher wages. The U.S. National Soccer Team Players Association released a statement on Friday that it “fully supports” USWNT players achieving both equal pay and equal distribution of attributable revenue. Further, it is “committed to the concept of a revenue-sharing model” to sustain more equitable compensation–perhaps along the lines of what was achieved by the Norwegian federation in October 2017. “
—————-
So much for the market argument.

Now that there’s some money in women’s soccer, the days of the spirited amateur are over. How are people supposed to live? The US suffered from no leagues or failing leagues, for years. Europe is putting serious money in. So you’ll have kids going directly into training for leagues or playing, from high school.

Before the last wcup, Morgan Brian and Meghan Klingenberg used to live with Jeff Van Gundy’s (former NBA coach -Knicks, Rockets) family in Houston during the Nwsl season.
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And the experience has opened Van Gundy's eyes to the disparity in sports for female athletes, and clearly has given him a new appreciation.

"The utter lack of sense of entitlement was actually startling for me," he told Litman. "For professional athletes, I always think about it in these terms: the most difficult diva of women's soccer would be the easiest NBA player ever."
————————-
http://www.espn.com/espnw/athletes-life/the-buzz/article/13147187/two-us-soccer-players-actually-live-jeff-van-gundy-house
 

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Imagine if the roles were reversed, with the men earning a fraction of what the women are paid. And imagine that the men want to negotiate a new deal, pointing to the fact that they regularly bring in roughly the same amount of revenue for the USSF as the women.

Would anyone in America criticise them for wanting equal pay if they bring in the same amount of money for the organisation?
And would anyone criticize white hetero men for lobbying for human rights reform or equality for marginalized groups they happened to belong to?
 
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LuliTheYounger

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I thought this quote was interesting, from Norway's player's union president, about requesting that the men's team give up part of their marketing payments so they could free up money to increase the WNT's fees:

“When we asked the men’s team to say if they wanted to contribute to this equality it was quite easy, because they earn so much more in their clubs. That’s their main income. They know the women’s players need [the federation income] more and it will make a difference for them—especially players in the Norwegian women’s league."

https://www.si.com/soccer/2017/10/08/fifa-women-soccer-equal-pay-norway-gianni-infantino
 

crgildart

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I thought this was one of the more comprehensive journalistic examinations I have seen of the current differences in pay between the men's and women's national teams

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/08/are-us-womens-soccer-players-really-earning-less-than-men
Article says they can't track sponsorship $s earned by men vs women.. Calling BS on that. Merch sales for women's team gear are WAY above that for men. Ad endorsements will probably also be way higher for the team who won over the team that may not even qualify again..
 

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Sorry, thought the US team was a gov't sponsored thing. Nevertheless, this IS the national team, not a club team. I don't think equal pay is that difficult to achieve in a non-profit like that. Just takes will. I don't think you can argue for equal salaries in club teams where they are dependent on team revenue.
 

CalG

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How is the NWSL doing these days? What happened to the Old WSL?
 
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