Thread Starter
TS
While we're at it, Women's Alpine racing is the one sport where women out-earn the men.
Can I say... You go girls!!!
Can I say... You go girls!!!
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'Women' to replace 'Ladies' in FIS terminology
- Thread starter Tricia
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One person is not the sport.
I'm not sure, but it may be Wimbledon is one of the few major sports events that still insists on "Ladies & Gentlemen" (along with the LPGA)
Most that I know about use "men & women" or "male & female" (not common)
So I agree with @Monique and others that the use of "men & ladies" by FIS seems, if not discriminatory, at least rather archaic
The whole "Ladies & Gentlemen" thing is a relic of British class-ridden sophistry that as a "liberty or death" small-d democrat I abjure, dondemn and wholeheartedly reject
(sorry, happen to be reading a history of the Revolution at the moment
)
Most that I know about use "men & women" or "male & female" (not common)
So I agree with @Monique and others that the use of "men & ladies" by FIS seems, if not discriminatory, at least rather archaic
The whole "Ladies & Gentlemen" thing is a relic of British class-ridden sophistry that as a "liberty or death" small-d democrat I abjure, dondemn and wholeheartedly reject
(sorry, happen to be reading a history of the Revolution at the moment
)
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And Danica Patrick, 13 yrs ago considered the constant use of "women" old fashioned.
Danica Patrick back when she was 24, in an interview with NPR.
"I take the word 'woman' and think it's almost old fashioned."
Danica Patrick: 'Girl' Takes Charge Behind the Wheel
Npr, May 17, 2006
At 3:45: (text is not a transcript of the audio)
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5386206
"Ladies" vs "Women" was a hot topic when I was in college in 1978.
There was local pizza/beer joint (drinking age was 18!) with Ladies's and Men's restrooms.
Someone covered the "Ladies" sign with a piece of paper that said "Women".
About a week later, someone decided it was inappropriate that "Women" include "men", so
they tore of part of the paper, leaving it saying "Wom". Apparently this was a term that was preferred in some circles.
But of course, the original sign was still underneath.
Hence the birth of the term used in my circle of friends, "Womdies".
There was local pizza/beer joint (drinking age was 18!) with Ladies's and Men's restrooms.
Someone covered the "Ladies" sign with a piece of paper that said "Women".
About a week later, someone decided it was inappropriate that "Women" include "men", so
they tore of part of the paper, leaving it saying "Wom". Apparently this was a term that was preferred in some circles.
But of course, the original sign was still underneath.
Hence the birth of the term used in my circle of friends, "Womdies".
Quiet....quiet please..now in the starting gate is Marcel Herscher for the Gentleman's Slalom... Nah...doesn't work. Men's and Women's events are much cleaner and simpler.
My mother tried to teach me to display "ladylike" behavior as a teen. I did not want to display ladylike behavior. And I did not like being told that I could not do things because it was not ladylike. We fought over this.
Here's a for-instance. Wearing jeans was not ladylike. I had to go to the boys and men's sections of the department store to find blue jeans. I was afraid of employee disapproval so would wait until there was no clerk around, then sneak in and look for jeans looking over my shoulder for clerks. I'd bring them back to the junior girls area to try on. I did buy the jeans and converted my whole wardrobe to jeans-based blue. Teen life in the early 60s!
My mother's list of being ladylike involved all kinds of restrictive behaviors meant to assure the public of my moral uprightness and marriagability. These included not speaking until spoken to, speaking quietly not loudly, sitting with hands in lap and knees pressed tightly together (even when wearing pants instead of skirts), letting men take the lead, not disagreeing with men publicly. I disobeyed all of these. I didn't know the word "feminism." I was just a teen wanting freedom to be me.
When I went to college women had a curfew but men didn't. Women had to wear skirts or dresses to class, and could only wear pants after 6:00 pm (on weekends pants were allowed). Women could not live off-campus, but men could. These restrictions were associated with the idea of maintaining a "ladylike" persona. That was in the past, of course. Many but not all of the women-specific restrictions were dropped by my college by the time I graduated. I learned the word "feminism," but still didn't really know what it meant.
When I started skiing, many many years later, I was shocked that in the ski world women were routinely called "ladies." In my experience, the term was pretty much gone elsewhere.
I've gotten used to it now and haven't spoken out against the word because I think much of the baggage from its past usage has been lost. For some younger people the only baggage is the lack of "gentlemen" as a correlate. Perhaps not all posting in this thread are aware of the associations with ladylike behavior that prevailed in the past. But that old meaning still clings to the word, otherwise no one would object to it.
I'm glad ladies is being changed to women in racing. We need to do this throughout the sport.
Here's a for-instance. Wearing jeans was not ladylike. I had to go to the boys and men's sections of the department store to find blue jeans. I was afraid of employee disapproval so would wait until there was no clerk around, then sneak in and look for jeans looking over my shoulder for clerks. I'd bring them back to the junior girls area to try on. I did buy the jeans and converted my whole wardrobe to jeans-based blue. Teen life in the early 60s!
My mother's list of being ladylike involved all kinds of restrictive behaviors meant to assure the public of my moral uprightness and marriagability. These included not speaking until spoken to, speaking quietly not loudly, sitting with hands in lap and knees pressed tightly together (even when wearing pants instead of skirts), letting men take the lead, not disagreeing with men publicly. I disobeyed all of these. I didn't know the word "feminism." I was just a teen wanting freedom to be me.
When I went to college women had a curfew but men didn't. Women had to wear skirts or dresses to class, and could only wear pants after 6:00 pm (on weekends pants were allowed). Women could not live off-campus, but men could. These restrictions were associated with the idea of maintaining a "ladylike" persona. That was in the past, of course. Many but not all of the women-specific restrictions were dropped by my college by the time I graduated. I learned the word "feminism," but still didn't really know what it meant.
When I started skiing, many many years later, I was shocked that in the ski world women were routinely called "ladies." In my experience, the term was pretty much gone elsewhere.
I've gotten used to it now and haven't spoken out against the word because I think much of the baggage from its past usage has been lost. For some younger people the only baggage is the lack of "gentlemen" as a correlate. Perhaps not all posting in this thread are aware of the associations with ladylike behavior that prevailed in the past. But that old meaning still clings to the word, otherwise no one would object to it.
I'm glad ladies is being changed to women in racing. We need to do this throughout the sport.
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There are other words in the African American and Gay communities that are totally kosher to say as a member of those communities and wildly offensive if you’re not. Girls is milder and more fit for TV, but along the same lines. I wouldn’t use it to refer to a woman out of her teen years unless she’s explicitly made her preference clear.
I think it's a good decision on the part of the FIS. I just posted about this on the Ski Diva forum--lots of associations with the word that come up from the past, so I was particularly fond of it.
Lastly, for me the association of "Hey Lady!!" in a Brooklyn accent from TV/movies is more funny than respectful.
Like
@liquidfeet
, I was the type to buck at being told to act lady-like.
I was uncomfortable how oozy and cheesy the word sounded in songs. Even favorites like Todd Rundgren "ooooo baby baby", Bob Dylan "lay lady lay", and Led Zeppelin: "hey lady...you got the love I need". Don't get me started on Kenny Rogers or Lionel Richie.
Lastly, for me the association of "Hey Lady!!" in a Brooklyn accent from TV/movies is more funny than respectful.
Actually, going back to my childhood in the 50's, there's the fraught associations Liquidfeet has of being constrained from climbing trees and playing football around the time I hit sixth grade because of this lady thing, but I had a further run-in with the two terms before that. Although a Yankee, my dad was not. He was born and grew up in South Carolina and his parents and his sister were still down there when I was growing up. We'd go to visit every year. I got in a bunch of trouble for using the door marked Women some place. I was told I must always use the Ladies room. Which was totally confusing to me, I might have been six. It was a racial distinction! Which I had never encountered until then up North. So, I've always considered the usage of the terms pretty loaded with underlying meanings.
Oh wow. I was growing up in Mississippi when you were visiting South Carolina. The bathrooms were labelled "colored" as were the water fountains. But along with "colored" must have been some indication of male or female for those bathrooms; I just don't remember.
I don't remember getting in trouble for using the wrong bathroom, but I do for using the wrong water fountain.
Words matter.
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Who's outraged? Female athletes asked for a name change. FIS is listening to their female athletes. That's worth celebrating. We think that's rad. We think people who minimize and trivialize those preferences aren't.
But sure, keep building a straw man argument if fair treatment and equal consideration across genders really rattles your tree ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I’m all for equity and comparability in terminology, but even more so in pay equity. If female beings are known as “women” and male beings are known as “men”, great, or we could call them XX and XY; regardless having the same opportunities, same level of facilities, same level of respect, same level of compensation and pay (not just for an outlier but averaged out amongst the field of competitors and over a significant period of time) for similar levels of achievement is just as important, or more so, than the particular words to describe the respective categories.
I apologize for the long, run-on sentence.
I apologize for the long, run-on sentence.
I heard on NPR today that the US women's soccer players are paid 38¢ for every dollar the US men's team players are paid, and are significantly more successful.
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I had to quit gymnastics and take ballet when I was 10 after 6 years in the sport because I wasn't ladylike enough. At 10. In the 1980s. And I was a really good gymnast. About the only thing I was good at in ballet was jumping. I hated ballet.
What in this thread suggests no one's watching the World Cup?
Well, I don’t know of any bars that have a “men’s night” or even a “gentlemen’s” night... oh wait, that is every night.
As far as I am concerned:
If girl, then boy
If ladies, then gentlemen
If women, then men
At least with these two genders, consistently makes sense in my opinion.
If girl, then boy
If ladies, then gentlemen
If women, then men
At least with these two genders, consistently makes sense in my opinion.