With big snow comes big risk

[Eleeski]

Base jumping odd of dying: 1 in 2300. OK that's pretty dangerous and lots of education and information is appropriate there.

Swimming should be safe, you'd think, but your odds of dying while swimming: 1 in 56,000. My Masters swimmer brother has seen somebody die at a meet (lifeguards and CPR right there). Not much to do about that (not the worst way to go) but there's a LOT of education possible there to address pool drowning deaths as the leading cause of death among 1 to 4 year olds.

We all cycle and there's a big section here on cycling stoke. Odds of dying cycling: 1 in 92,000. Ride safe and be visible.

Running? I hate running. It tries to kill me. Literally. Odds of dying running: 1 in 97,000. That's almost the same as cycling and you get there so much faster on a bike.

(source: http://www.rulesofsport.com/faq/what-is-the-world-s-most-dangerous-sport.html )

Now compare skiing. Odds of dying skiing: 1 in 1,000,000 . That's pretty darn safe - compared to running.

(Source NSAA)

Statistically, don't be an intermediate male on the edges of a blue groomer. Big snow days might improve the skills enough to move some guys out of the intermediate category - safety improvement?

( https://unofficialnetworks.com/2017/03/26/7-surprising-facts-ski-deaths-injuries/ but the big snow correlation is my speculation)

Why do you get so triggered when someone tells you something is dangerous? We've had a record breaking snow season, of course there are going to be more incidents. What is wrong with telling people to be safe and bringing awareness to snow safety? I feel like skiing is one of the few places fear mongering doesn't really happen enough as we have pros getting killed all the time doing stupid shit for our entertainment.

I get upset when lists of deaths or avalanche hype misstates the real risks. The presentation has an effect on people's perceptions - and the reactions of managers making decisions on openings.

I love the upbeat stoke that this site usually has to offer.

Eric

Under the lies, damn lies and statistics interpretation, skiing is safer than driving: In the 2010-11 season, there were 60.5 million skier visits, and 47 ski related deaths, less than 1 in per million. On our roads, 160 people die per million drivers, according to the National Highway Safety Traffic Administration

 

[Bad Bob]

If this is going to be a safety meeting do I need to run down to the pot store before continuing?

Must get on the soap box now.
Personal pet peeve regarding safety in a big snow year like this one are people with a minimal skill set taking their "friends" with even fewer skills out into the trees, steeps, clif bands, side country............. It is bad enough to see the guy taking his girlfriend on a run that is over her head, but there are just too many ways for bad things to happen out there.
Last week watched a dad take his kids down a creek bed below a steep roped off face with about 3' of loose snow on it. The kids were miserable, falling down every 10', but he was going to teach them to ski powder. He took them right down through a terrain trap; doubt he had a clue. Nothing happened, but one rope ducker could have made for an entirely different outcome.
Our chosen playground can have some very tempting dangers. It has taken most of us years to recognize them (most of the time), the deeper the snows get, and more multilayered the, the possibilities increase for something to happen.

Just pay attention, and don't be 'that guy'.

 

[Core2]

Base jumping odd of dying: 1 in 2300. OK that's pretty dangerous and lots of education and information is appropriate there.

Swimming should be safe, you'd think, but your odds of dying while swimming: 1 in 56,000. My Masters swimmer brother has seen somebody die at a meet (lifeguards and CPR right there). Not much to do about that (not the worst way to go) but there's a LOT of education possible there to address pool drowning deaths as the leading cause of death among 1 to 4 year olds.

We all cycle and there's a big section here on cycling stoke. Odds of dying cycling: 1 in 92,000. Ride safe and be visible.

Running? I hate running. It tries to kill me. Literally. Odds of dying running: 1 in 97,000. That's almost the same as cycling and you get there so much faster on a bike.

(source: http://www.rulesofsport.com/faq/what-is-the-world-s-most-dangerous-sport.html )

Now compare skiing. Odds of dying skiing: 1 in 1,000,000 . That's pretty darn safe - compared to running.

(Source NSAA)

Statistically, don't be an intermediate male on the edges of a blue groomer. Big snow days might improve the skills enough to move some guys out of the intermediate category - safety improvement?

( https://unofficialnetworks.com/2017/03/26/7-surprising-facts-ski-deaths-injuries/ but the big snow correlation is my speculation)



I get upset when lists of deaths or avalanche hype misstates the real risks. The presentation has an effect on people's perceptions - and the reactions of managers making decisions on openings.

I love the upbeat stoke that this site usually has to offer.

Eric

Under the lies, damn lies and statistics interpretation, skiing is safer than driving: In the 2010-11 season, there were 60.5 million skier visits, and 47 ski related deaths, less than 1 in per million. On our roads, 160 people die per million drivers, according to the National Highway Safety Traffic Administration

The thing about those skiing odds numbers is you throw in age, ability, equipment, conditions, etc. etc. and those odds look a lot different. I ski dangerous terrain just like everyone here but I don't ski at the higher end of the danger threshold where those odds you quoted start to look very different. I guess this subject kind of triggers me a bit because some of my heroes, people who inspired me to get into this sport, are no longer with us due to pushing the envelope too far. The topic of risk gets beaten to death here, it always comes down to the individual's threshold I guess. I just think skiing has a weird culture, maybe surfing is a bit the same way, where people don't seem to have as much fun or be as impressed as they could be without pushing the risk to extreme levels. This is why I think we've lost respect for the mountains and the danger and that isn't a good thing.

 

[Primoz]

Contrary to what you expected @Core2 , I admit I'm junkie. Skiing was and still is big part of my life, and yeah I'm addicted to this. I need to get at least hour or two of sport (skiing, cycling, running or whatever makes me happy) in day, otherwise I feel bad. I agree perfect definition of junkie. And I'm not joking about this.
Maybe someone might consider my life is so pathetic I have to ski, but personally I don't consider I ski because my life would be pathetic, but simply because I love to ski. I was ski racing more then half of life, and I'm still one way or the other connected to skiing nowadays, professionally or personally, and there's very few things I enjoy more then skiing. Does this count as pathetic life? Maybe for some, for me it doesn't, but we are different.
On the other side, you think my life is pathetic because I love to go skiing, but you are willing to sit in car every day to drive to work. And as I wrote, there's more chances to die in car accident the on hill with skis on. Talking about pathetic
Again... I have no intention to die, and I do everything not to die, because my life, at least for me, is not so pathetic I would want to die. And I don't want to die in car driving to work either, mainly because I love to live... and I love to ski. And honestly, if I could get money to do things I love to do without going to work, I would definitely rather have pathetic life skiing 8h/day then being at work 8h/day. I know really pathetic, but we all have different priorities
Like it or not, we are all "skiing potentially deadly terrain". As soon as you step on skis, you have chance to die. There are all sorts of accidents, and with some bad luck any can end up real bad, and real dead. So based on your classification, pretty much everyone, including you, as I assume you do ski, have pretty pathetic life

 

[Tricia]

The point of this thread was not to dwell on the deaths and risk, but to focus on the need to amp up safety awareness when we have a big snow year.

Part of that awareness has been discussed in a variety of concepts.

• Don't be the person who over terrains someone or takes your kid or friend over their head because you don't want to miss out on the big snow
• Don't go out of bounds or back country when avalanche warnings are high.
• Don't duck ropes because YOU don't see the danger.
• Do buddy up when skiing trees and check in with your buddy regularly
• Do pay attention to the layers

 

[dbostedo]

Base jumping odd of dying: 1 in 2300. OK that's pretty dangerous and lots of education and information is appropriate there.

Swimming should be safe, you'd think, but your odds of dying while swimming: 1 in 56,000. My Masters swimmer brother has seen somebody die at a meet (lifeguards and CPR right there). Not much to do about that (not the worst way to go) but there's a LOT of education possible there to address pool drowning deaths as the leading cause of death among 1 to 4 year olds.

We all cycle and there's a big section here on cycling stoke. Odds of dying cycling: 1 in 92,000. Ride safe and be visible.

Running? I hate running. It tries to kill me. Literally. Odds of dying running: 1 in 97,000. That's almost the same as cycling and you get there so much faster on a bike.

(source: http://www.rulesofsport.com/faq/what-is-the-world-s-most-dangerous-sport.html )

Now compare skiing. Odds of dying skiing: 1 in 1,000,000 . That's pretty darn safe - compared to running.

I think your point is valid, but I think you're mixing different calculation types and the direct comparison isn't correct.

The article on most dangerous sports calculates the odds per number of participants, not amount of participation. The ski statistic you site is based on amount of total participation (skier-visits) not the number of participants (# of skiers). Doing it the way the article appears to, there are about 40 skier deaths per year at US resorts, and about 9.2 million skiers in the US (according to Google). That's a 1 in 230,000 chance of dying, as compared to the sports in the article.

 

[Primoz]

but to focus on the need to amp up safety awareness when we have a big snow year.

I think that's wrong attitude, and the one that brings those deaths and risk. Awareness should be pretty much exactly same if it's big snow or not so big snow. Simply as quite few wrote already here or elsewhere, there's simply no 100% safety when out in uncontrolled terrain (and I always add also in controlled as it proves over and over again)

 

[Tricia]

I think that's wrong attitude, and the one that brings those deaths and risk. Awareness should be pretty much exactly same if it's big snow or not so big snow. Simply as quite few wrote already here or elsewhere, there's simply no 100% safety when out in uncontrolled terrain (and I always add also in controlled as it proves over and over again)

I'll give you that. Awareness should always be a part of our skiing, but I think the big snow year makes some people lose their minds.

 

[Primoz]

@Tricia that's definitely true. I can see over here in resorts when there's just half meter new snow.... everyone and their dogs are out there "skiing powder". Without knowledge, without equipment, without checking anything. It looks easy on Youtube so let's go. Majority of death in Austria on beginning of January, when there was that crazy snow were people on holidays in resorts, who headed out. There were very few casualties between ski tourers or regular freeriders, and there was lot of ski touring and freeriding going on at that time.

 

[Eleeski]

I'll give you that. Awareness should always be a part of our skiing, but I think the big snow year makes some people lose their minds.

Awareness is always good. Threads about how to ski in poor visibility, how to handle winds, how to dress for storms, where to avoid, the pass clippings for ducking ropes, how to measure backcountry snow, avpack and beacon equipment reviews, what you did to get a near miss instead of being a statistic - those raise awareness. And can make entertaining reading.

Disaster lists and rationalizations for CYA closures don't do much for me.

My (flawed) statistics list is guilty of the same. OK, don't base jump (that's how we lost McConkey). Perhaps the reason we have good skiing statistics is that we swim, cycle and run to stay in shape for skiing. Certainly don't quit doing those for safety fears. It might just translate into increased risk elsewhere.

Exiting the KT lift in zero visibility and howling winds (a common scenario) makes one acutely aware of the danger. We figure out ways to deal with it and get down safely. In my experience and statistically, it works out (according to the Unofficial article). If we never get the opportunity to go out (due to our fears or the fears of managers) we lose our skills at dealing with adversity. Not fear, but tools to deal with conditions are the real value.

Eric

 

[Rod9301]

I love the "well I could die in a car wreck" so I should do stupid shit analogy. For me, a life changing powder day isn't worth going into bc and potentially dying. Simple as that. Maybe for other people the risk is worth the reward, good for them, I hope their family feels that way too. We've lost all respect for mountains and the danger they present. If your life is so pathetic you have to ski potentially deadly terrain find meaning you are just as bad as a junkie with a needle in your arm and you should be treated as such.

I'm glad you feel like you're never going to die.

 

[Coach13]

I'm glad you feel like you're never going to die.

I’m pretty sure I will but I’m going to make every effort to make reasonably sure I don’t rush the process by doing stupid things beyond my ability level on terrain I can’t survive if things go bad.

 

[HardDaysNight]

I'll give you that. Awareness should always be a part of our skiing, but I think the big snow year makes some people lose their minds.

I agree, more obvious if it follows a very low snow year. Humans, especially ones without much experience which includes the large number of recent transplants to the west, are not good at risk assessment. And worse at its mitigation. The expression “powder fever” exists for a reason.

 

[raisingarizona]

There sure are a lot of people that are generally disconnected from their environments. Scene safety seems like a gimme to me but apparently a lot of the majority can’t grasp that.

On skiing the back country, I don’t think it’s really that dangerous as long as you’re paying attention and know when to back off. I find it quite peaceful to be honest.

And I’m a junky as well. We are all wired a bit differently and this may sound a little sad but normal day to day shit really bores the crap out of me. I’m 99% sure I have some depression and the highs I get from adrenaline and endorphin rushes give me relief. Going really fast puts me in my happy place. Some people see these activities and it triggers a fear response but while in that moment it’s the most quiet and peaceful place I know.

 

[Philpug]

Focusing on death and risk just discourages us. (I wonder how many more suicides happened this season.) Relative risks vs the sensationalized bad outcomes that make good news. Hmmm.

Eric

The only sensationalizm related to this of late was almost every ski movie we watched earlier this fall where there was a scene where a skier would out ski an avalanche. Yes, this is ski porn and while the average Joe might know that he can never drop a 40' or 140' cliff doing a double or not, he does think "hey, I can ski fast, so I am not at risk."

Just as there are many people at resorts that are over terrain, there are many skier who are also in the back country that are over elemented..meaning they are getting into some elements that are way above their ability.

 

[dbostedo]

There sure are a lot of people that are generally disconnected from their environments. Scene safety seems like a gimme to me but apparently a lot of the majority can’t grasp that.

It might just be an educational issue. Before I joined EpicSki and started reading and travelling out west, I knew literally nothing about back country skiing, tree wells, avalanche risk, avalanche terrain, the fact that people actually died (that seemed like something only in a movie), etc. I have lived in the mid-Atlantic my whole life - it just wasn't something I needed to know.

 

[severou]

Honestly those numbers look not that deadly. If you looks at how many people die in general in different age groups.. add to that ski is an actual physical activity that is actually easier then things like running or cycling. Heart attacks kill a lot of people, a lot of VERY fit people, car accidents and all sort of things kill people. People die, we all die, sooner or later.

I am against taking unknown risks, meaning if I don't know the situation, area whatever I will not do it. Too many unknown and known unknowns. Then there is margin of error. People need to be aware what that margin is and be able to estimate it. Know when that margin is 0. Then you have objective hazards that can kill you no matter what if you can estimate what those chances are in certain spot don't go.

My all time favorite athlete/climber/alpinist was Ueli Steck. Not only what he done but more so his attitude, preparation etc. when he died it was not really unexpected or surprising and he said as much before in his interviews. Why Messner lived and Kukuzka died? Just things did not go his way, happens. Don't call things people like that did/do stupid, it is very disrespectful of the dead and just not true, they thought and tried as hard to achieve their objective(part of which is staying alive) but things did not work out. I also seriously doubt many of them were/are motivated by money, Steck was not, to do what he did you need inner motivation. When hanging on an ice tool on Eiger Nordwand sponsorship money are not high on the list of concerns. There are many much easier ways to make money, people with drive, discipline and motivation needed to achieve these objectives could have been good at many of them.

 

[4ster]

I agree that awareness is what needs to be promoted. Not just avalanche awareness but being aware of the mountain environment & possible hazards in general . I think the majority of people come to a ski area/resort and believe that this is a fully controlled amusement park and that the ski area personnel are fully responsible for their well-being.

I have acquired a saying as I have become more seasoned & experienced...
“The more I know, the scaredier I get”

 

[4ster]

The only sensationalizm related to this of late was almost every ski movie we watched earlier this fall where there was a scene where a skier would out ski an avalanche. Yes, this is ski portn and while the average Joe might knw that he can never drop a 40' or 140' cliff doing a double or not, he does think "hey, I can ski fast, so I am not at risk."

Just as there are many people at resorts that are over terrain, there are many skier who are also in the back country that are over elemented..meaning they are getting into some elements that are way above their ability.

Pretty much why I am not a big ski porn or any sport porn fan.
I did watch the movie Free Solo last night though, not sure I liked it.

 

[raisingarizona]

I agree that awareness is what needs to be promoted. Not just avalanche awareness but being aware of the mountain environment & possible hazards in general . I think the majority of people come to a ski area/resort and believe that this is a fully controlled amusement park and that the ski area personnel are fully responsible for their well-being.

I have acquired a saying as I have become more seasoned & experienced...
“The more I know, the scaredier I get”

Im amazed by the snowboarders that sit across busy groomed ski runs with their backs turned from uphill traffic.