Wide Ski Newbie: Choose mount point & drill or get demo binding so I can try out "mount points"?

[ARL67]

The previous Attack 13 demo ( non-GW ) has a 23mm stand-height.

Summarizing from Phil's binding listings, we have for the current demo bindings :

33mm NX/SPX 12
32mm Attack2 13
27mm Warden 13
25mm Griffon 13

 

[ski otter 2]

@chopchop, the Black Ops 118 is a ski I own and have experimented with, as have others I know. Subjective (individualized) tuning of mount point with this ski in particular, in my experience, is a great idea, really noticeable in terms of performance differences. Stand height, not so much.

Yes, in general, around minus 2 cm. will work out well for a more directional skier not skiing switch, etc. But.....

The Black Ops 118 is a special ski, for those who like tanks in crud. It's not a great powder ski, per se, but it is a top powder/crud/chop ski: again, it's a bit like a tank; little fazes it in crud. But it doesn't have the greatest float. To me, it is so good at what it does that it is a five-star ski (especially for folks with no leg problems that can get aggravated by how heavy it is). But the ski will do noticeably better at the right mount point for you. As small a difference as a half cm. or less may well make a lot of difference in how that ski behaves. And folks like different mount points with this ski, in particular.

Additionally:

• I don't think the Black Ops 118 will be bothered by a relatively heavier demo binding, since it really takes advantage of, and is designed around, its heavy weight. It will only get more damp and commanding from the slight additional weight at the center, in my opinion.

• Marker Griffon Schizo bindings are the binding for what you want to be doing: change mount point easily to see, on a powder ski. But demo bindings work fairly well also. (Even though the possible stopping points are more widely spaced. )

• To encourage you, the Black Ops 118 is a lot like the K2 Pettitor 120/189, very different from almost any other ski around. And the Pettitors are probably the most mount sensitive ski I've ever been on, in a good way.

Again for encouragement, as far as what mount points work best, it depends on the ski. In my experience, some skis "like" a wide range of useful mount points depending on conditions, chosen skiing style for the day, and skier. (And it's often fun to find you have more than one useful pair of skis hidden in that single pair of powder skis, so to speak.) Some skis are neat in that they change a lot in useful performance within a wide range of as much as 4 or so cms. (Examples: Stockli laser AX 183/182; K2 Pettitor 189.) Others go through large, positive performance changes in less than a few cms. (Example: Volkl V-Werks Katana 184 and 191.) And some are in between. (Example: Head Kore 117 189.) Usually, the longer the ski, the wider the useful range of effective mounts. I'd guess the useful range for the Black Ops 118 would be around 2 to 3 cms. or so. But I have not experimented enough to know, even for myself (especially since the season got shortened).

In my experience, the stand height matters most with narrower skis, since it gives leverage over the edge. With a narrower ski, for instance, sometimes one of the higher demo bindings will have a pleasant effect by giving welcome greater leverage to your edge control and carving. (Example: the Volkl M5 Mantra, which for me improves considerably with a taller binding - added plate or taller demo.) Usually with a fat ski, especially as fat, stiff and straight as the Black Ops 118, stand height will have minimal overall effect, either pro or con, even if noticeable. Mount point, on the other hand, will have a whopping effect, probably.

 

[Ken_R]

If you can find them I highly recommend the Marker Griffon TCX Demo bindings. I love mine on my Noctas. The brakes are super easy to change and are identical to the ones in the standard Griffon bindings so super easy to find.

 

[chopchop]

If you can find them I highly recommend the Marker Griffon TCX Demo bindings. I love mine on my Noctas. The brakes are super easy to change and are identical to the ones in the standard Griffon bindings so super easy to find.

Found and bought. Thanks, @Ken_R.

 

[chopchop]

@chopchop, the Black Ops 118 is a ski I own and have experimented with, as have others I know. Subjective (individualized) tuning of mount point with this ski in particular, in my experience, is a great idea, really noticeable in terms of performance differences. Stand height, not so much.

Yes, in general, around minus 2 cm. will work out well for a more directional skier not skiing switch, etc. But.....

The Black Ops 118 is a special ski, for those who like tanks in crud. It's not a great powder ski, per se, but it is a top powder/crud/chop ski: again, it's a bit like a tank; little fazes it in crud. But it doesn't have the greatest float. To me, it is so good at what it does that it is a five-star ski (especially for folks with no leg problems that can get aggravated by how heavy it is). But the ski will do noticeably better at the right mount point for you. As small a difference as a half cm. or less may well make a lot of difference in how that ski behaves. And folks like different mount points with this ski, in particular.

Additionally:

• I don't think the Black Ops 118 will be bothered by a relatively heavier demo binding, since it really takes advantage of, and is designed around, its heavy weight. It will only get more damp and commanding from the slight additional weight at the center, in my opinion.

• Marker Griffon Schizo bindings are the binding for what you want to be doing: change mount point easily to see, on a powder ski. But demo bindings work fairly well also. (Even though the possible stopping points are more widely spaced. )

• To encourage you, the Black Ops 118 is a lot like the K2 Pettitor 120/189, very different from almost any other ski around. And the Pettitors are probably the most mount sensitive ski I've ever been on, in a good way.

Again for encouragement, as far as what mount points work best, it depends on the ski. In my experience, some skis "like" a wide range of useful mount points depending on conditions, chosen skiing style for the day, and skier. (And it's often fun to find you have more than one useful pair of skis hidden in that single pair of powder skis, so to speak.) Some skis are neat in that they change a lot in useful performance within a wide range of as much as 4 or so cms. (Examples: Stockli laser AX 183/182; K2 Pettitor 189.) Others go through large, positive performance changes in less than a few cms. (Example: Volkl V-Werks Katana 184 and 191.) And some are in between. (Example: Head Kore 117 189.) Usually, the longer the ski, the wider the useful range of effective mounts. I'd guess the useful range for the Black Ops 118 would be around 2 to 3 cms. or so. But I have not experimented enough to know, even for myself (especially since the season got shortened).

In my experience, the stand height matters most with narrower skis, since it gives leverage over the edge. With a narrower ski, for instance, sometimes one of the higher demo bindings will have a pleasant effect by giving welcome greater leverage to your edge control and carving. (Example: the Volkl M5 Mantra, which for me improves considerably with a taller binding - added plate or taller demo.) Usually with a fat ski, especially as fat, stiff and straight as the Black Ops 118, stand height will have minimal overall effect, either pro or con, even if noticeable. Mount point, on the other hand, will have a whopping effect, probably.

@ski otter 2 (who is ski otter 1??) Thanks for the really detailed reply. Great to hear from someone with direct experience with this ski (and so any others). After some consideration I decided to go with the griffon tcx d to allow me this MP flexibility. And if I find that golden MP I can easily redrill for my pivots.

Great stuff. Thanks again.

</Thread_complete>

 

[ski otter 2]

@chopchop, you may find that flexibility useful long term even once you find a favorite mounting point, especially with that ski. First, in really wet, heavy snow of some depth, many if not most powder skis benefit from moving the bindings slightly back, if that is easy to do. Not sure exactly why, but it's noticeable. Then for a champagne powder day, you can move back to your normal, more forward position.

Second, as I indicated in that last post, you may well find that there are two or more distinctly wonderful, different "skis" (different behavior, anyway) hidden in that one ski, with two different mount points: say, one more playful and liking a more pivoting style, for example, and maybe one more directional, favoring more of a tip-driving or carving style, say. (These are just two of a number I've found with various skis.) In that case, you may want to keep the flexibility of shifting mounting points, adding a bonus option/"ski" to your quiver, so to speak.

 

[mishka]

@chopchop when installing demo binding for the purpose of adjusting position on the skis you got to remember. depends on your boot size travel of the binding for adjustment on the rail can be limited in one direction or another

 

[chopchop]

@chopchop when installing demo binding for the purpose of adjusting position on the skis you got to remember. depends on your boot size travel of the binding for adjustment on the rail can be limited in one direction or another

Yes - I had that in mind. Recommended MP for this ski is very forward so I expect to allow for maybe a CM beyond that, but mostly mount to allow for backwards travel. Thanks.

 

[chopchop]

@chopchop, you may find that flexibility useful long term even once you find a favorite mounting point, especially with that ski. First, in really wet, heavy snow of some depth, many if not most powder skis benefit from moving the bindings slightly back, if that is easy to do. Not sure exactly why, but it's noticeable. Then for a champagne powder day, you can move back to your normal, more forward position.

Second, as I indicated in that last post, you may well find that there are two or more distinctly wonderful, different "skis" (different behavior, anyway) hidden in that one ski, with two different mount points: say, one more playful and liking a more pivoting style, for example, and maybe one more directional, favoring more of a tip-driving or carving style, say. (These are just two of a number I've found with various skis.) In that case, you may want to keep the flexibility of shifting mounting points, adding a bonus option/"ski" to your quiver, so to speak.

@ski otter 2 You wouldn't happen to remember how good the factory tune is on blackops? Seems unlikely with the substantially rockered tails, but did you have to detune?

 

[mishka]

Yes - I had that in mind. Recommended MP for this ski is very forward so I expect to allow for maybe a CM beyond that, but mostly mount to allow for backwards travel. Thanks.

even so if only travel you need backwards distance you can travel on the rail can be substantial depends on installation obviously nontraditional

 

[ski otter 2]

@ski otter 2 You wouldn't happen to remember how good the factory tune is on blackops? Seems unlikely with the substantially rockered tails, but did you have to detune?

I don't know. I got mine second hand at a ski swap, and by then the tune was crude but good enough for soft snow - just fine, actually. (But maybe could be a bit more precise, not sure yet.) After a few burrs, I'd just fine-tuned them a bit by putting more of a carving edge to them, to see how they would do that way, but skiing ended before I could test that, and see if anything further would help.

I think they had been slightly detuned when I got them, which to me is needless: what I do in place of detuning (only IF it feels on the snow like the ski might benefit from that) is keep the edge sharp but increase the base bevel slightly at tip and tail, usually from just in front of the contact point on forward (or backward, at the tail). After testing again, I sometimes slightly increase this more, as needed, or find it just right. As I said, I had not gotten beyond a bit of sharpening (not yet tested) with the already used (and tuned) Black Ops. Shucks. (So what I'd guess further about the Black Ops would only be based on my experience with the Pettitors (base bevel increased as described) and what others have told me (some have detuned, some have not).

 

[surfandski]

I'll typically go with non-demos at recommended line on non-powder skis but won't ever put non-demos on powder skis again. I find the mount position is much more critical in 3D snow and have had several more center-mounted skis that I hated until I re-drilled and moved the bindings further back than recommended at which point the skis came alive. I also like being able to adjust them a little more centered in less than 12" and then further back in bottomless.

 

[Henry]

...the longer binding mounting template on a demo binding which won’t allow as natural a flex of the ski

The rail? I'm familiar with Head/Tyrolia rails in the PowerRail line. Not actually demos, but totally adjustable. These offer more flex float that standard bindings. Standard bindings rely in the spring in the heel binding to allow front-back movement. The PowerRail has 4 pairs of screws only one pair is fixed. The other 3 pair of screws allow forward & back float. When the skis flex both the plastic rail flexes and floats as well as the spring loaded heel can move.

I have Tyrolia Attack13 demos on one pair. Separate steel rails for heel & toe. Standard spring loaded heel binding. No flex problems.

 

[GregK]

The rail? I'm familiar with Head/Tyrolia rails in the PowerRail line. Not actually demos, but totally adjustable. These offer more flex float that standard bindings. Standard bindings rely in the spring in the heel binding to allow front-back movement. The PowerRail has 4 pairs of screws only one pair is fixed. The other 3 pair of screws allow forward & back float. When the skis flex both the plastic rail flexes and floats as well as the spring loaded heel can move.

I have Tyrolia Attack13 demos on one pair. Separate steel rails for heel & toe. Standard spring loaded heel binding. No flex problems.

The longer plates/tracks under any demo binding will effect the flex more more than a traditional binding as it has a larger area of the ski being “strengthened/stiffened” by the additional layer screwed onto the ski. Separating the heel and toe pieces, floating/softer materials used between front and back pieces and having toe/heel in multiple pieces with track mounting bolts away from the ends of the track are often used to help try to minimize the effect of the larger binding mount. The larger demo mount/plates are effecting the flex underneath the boot as well as in front/behind the boot unless the skiers boot is at the very end of their scale(around 360mm approx on most).

So someone with a 260mm boot will have affected flex under the boot as well inhibited flex well in front /back of their boots. So those with smaller boots will notice more “stiffening” effect with demo bindings vs if they had traditional bindings mounted for their small boot size.

Traditional bindings usually have small toe templates that actually mount to the ski with areas in the air not effecting the flex(Look/Salomon STH) or short length, stubby toes in others(Tyrolia/Marker). Then on traditional heels, the mounting screws are less spread apart to reduce the “track ski strengthened area“ behind the heel piece and track is shorter than those on a demo binding.

The Look pivot has mounting screws under the heel with flexible material behind the heel so it allows for the most inhibited flex of any binding behind the boot heel and with its very small mounting areas on the toes/heels, very little affect under the foot as well. One of the reason it is chosen by all professional mogul skiers and many freestyle skiers who are dramatically flexing their skis.

So every binding will effect the natural flex of a ski but the Pivot will have the least effect and something like a long, solid “race plate” will have the most effect stiffening the ski underfoot.