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4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
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Taking lessons won't make someone a much better skier. Maybe a little better.
For the most part I agree & relate to the rest of this post but in my experience the above is just not true. I agree that there is no magic wand but I have personal experience with 100’s of folks who through instruction, example, coaching & monitored practice have become way more than “much better”.
B35E7392-F76A-48EC-971B-646C7D2103AC.jpeg
 

David Chaus

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For the most part I agree & relate to the rest of this post but in my experience the above is just not true. I agree that there is no magic wand but I have personal experience with 100’s of folks who through instruction, example, coaching & monitored practice have become way more than “much better”.
View attachment 75143

Well of course you have to have to right poles ogwink
 

MattFromCanada

Professional Something-or-another
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Vancouver/Whistler
Why ski schools don't market their instructors? Most ski schools will not have names of their instructors on their website (or credentials).

A couple of reasons I can think of...

Cost: Even if you have a list of instructors available and their credentials, and a nice photo, most people will balk at the price once they find out how much a lesson runs.

Unrealistic expectations by guests: Credentials only tell half the story. Some of the best instructors I've even met were just CSIA 2's, who for various reasons never progressed. I've also seen CSIA 3s who were able to ski well, and regurgitate knowledge on an exam but were terrible instructors. (I had one fellow who came to work at my ski school one year who had his Level 3 in snowboarding and Level 2 in skiing, without having worked a second as an instructor. He had just pinged the exam enough times until he'd passed. On paper he was impressive, but in practice... there are things that experience will teach you that you don't learn on a course...)

And of course, what happens when a guest requests Mr PSIA examiner and gets a PSIA 1 instead? They'll be quite unhappy indeed.

Turnover: In Canada especially, a lot of the workforce come in on 1 and 2 year visas. So a huge amount of the workforce changes over annually. Maintaining a website with the bios of 200+ staff for a decent sized snow school becomes a lot more costly than whatever benefits it might bring in.

Another factor is that most good instructors in the US don't actually instruct guests, they are typically staff trainers, examiners, supervisors etc, as that's where you can make a sustainable living.

Absolutely! Same case in Canada. The "best" instructors are the ones doing Instructor training programs while others are in snow school administration. (That's not to say that all top cert instructors are "good" per-say, some of the worst clinics I've ever been on were with CSIA Level 4's who were well past their due date...)

* Note: in my other job as a mental health counselor and couples therapist....

I can imagine that you'd get a fair number of clients from couples where one tried to teach the other to ski!

& did you eventually feel your arch?
Of course, if your trainer never told you when, where, how or especially WHY they were asking you to "feel your arch" then I am sure the path was much longer than necessary.

Often, this is what it takes to make an effective positive change. It is up to the teacher/coach to provide the proper feedback, example & direction to keep the student/athlete on track.

As someone who spent a few years in college doing sales, I've found that a lot of instructing really is about salesmanship! You're trying to get the student to buy into what you're teaching them, but in order for them to buy in, they have to understand *why* they want to ski a certain way, or change something. And that all stems from the start of the lesson. I always ask my students, "why are you here?"

The responses I get are never the same. Some are here because they have a fear of skiing trees or bumps, others are here because they just need to be able to get faster on groomers to keep up with their kids. Some are here just because their parents or spouse made them. But by knowing what their motivations (or lack thereof) are, you can actually make some progress, and you don't end up with students having the same experience as @SallyCat did, getting turned off from the whole process. As my sales training put it, "hit them with your FBAT." Feature of what you're working on, Benefit, Ask them to try it, and then say thanks at the end.

On a personal note, I've been told for years on CSIA courses that I wash out my turns and over-rotate when I turn to the left. I was never told how I was doing it it, or what to do to correct it. Just to stop it. This week I was doing a ski camp with the DSV (German Ski Instructors association) and my trainer took a look at my skiing and said "you know, you kind of swing your right hand around when you pole plant, but you don't do it with your left. If you keep doing that, you over-rotate."

Boom. Problem fixed.
 

David Chaus

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As someone who spent a few years in college doing sales, I've found that a lot of instructing really is about salesmanship! You're trying to get the student to buy into what you're teaching them, but in order for them to buy in, they have to understand *why* they want to ski a certain way, or change something. And that all stems from the start of the lesson. I always ask my students, "why are you here?"
I like your approach, that said, I’ve found “why” questions to not be as helpful as “who” “what” when” “where” “how” questions. For example “what one thing would make this a useful lesson for you?” Or “when do you notice that everything works well for you?” Or “where have you really enjoyed skiing, and what was it that you enjoyed about it?” Or “when you’ve had a really good lesson, who was it with and what did they show you that really helped (or how did they guide you to better skiing)?”

You get the idea.
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
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While I understand the benefits of multi-day ski camps, they are not the end-all, be-all to solve the terminal intermediates’ dilemma. I’ve tried 3 of them, and it always comes back to the same factor: the instructor. Having the wrong instructor for 4-5 days is excruciating because you know you’re sort of stuck. Moving up or down a level may or may not be a solution, depending on group size, their skill level(s), and yours. If you go down a level, you may feel like you’re wasting your time. I know, I know, you can always pick up something, but if you invested your $ and time, you want the right level of instruction. Going up a level may annihilate your confidence, assuming you had any left at this point. While I speak from experience, YMMV.

Of the 3 camps I’ve done, only one made long-lasting improvements in my skiing (I still have my notes from that camp, never got any from the others). Martha was simply awesome and I’d take a zillion lessons from her if I was in the ‘hood and if I had the $.

@SallyCat , I feel your pain. But don’t quit skiing.

At the Big White Master's weeks there are many, many participants so they have multiple groups at each level. So changing a group (up/down/sideways) was not a problem. Also groups were reasonably uniform in ability. That was my experience.
 

Kneale Brownson

Making fresh tracks forever on the other side
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Maybe this is a hint: My final paycheck from Breckenridge Ski Resort
169311886.jpg

That was the result after multiple federal and state deductions from an original amount of $41.73 I have no idea what that was supposed to compensate me for unless maybe it was time spent in a meeting with supervisors to explain I had to leave Breckenridge ASAP in mid season for health reasons.

This, of course, is posted in humor.
 

HDSkiing

You’re Sliding On-Snow; Don’t Over-Think it!
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I’m not sure that there would be much return on investment by cold-advertising.

But that’s not to say that one cannot market themselves. At our little hill here in NM, all 12K plus thousand feet of it:) we get an international crowd and many, many return guests. One of the best marketing investments is a simple business card, but you can do other things as well, like send the guest a thank you note after they skied with you and then send them another one in the fall, hoping you will visit again then adding a call to action, like bookings are filling up fast they should reserve a spot now (a fact during busy holidays/weekends).

Some of our seasoned staff are booked all day every day for so much of the season they welcome some of the slow days that allow them to free ski, for them there is little need to advertise. The gold standard here is to get private requests which ups your hourly rate at least $10.00/hr before tips.

And how do you do that? By creating an experience that the guest values and wants to repeat again. It’s certainly more art than science, and no doubt some Instructors are just better at it. I’m a huge proponent of the “people-teaching-technical skills,” concepts that the PSIA has embraced. The challenge is getting our part timers/seasonal staff enough exposure to the training and to be honest some experienced staff to buy in.

All ski schools face the challenge of staffing enough for the season peak times by bringing on new staff and getting them trained then keeping them busy in the slower times. So what does all that mean for the public who doesn’t know who might be a good fit? A lot of times you just have to ask around, starting with the ski school booking people. They should be able to guide you. I know when booking private’s we try to ask a lot of questions so that we can find you a good match, harder to do when we are super busy.

The other thing is to book group lessons, they are relatively cheap compared to private’s, and you might happen on an Instructor you click with. I often see some of our newer often uncertified staff pull private requests out of level 1-4 groups because the guest really liked them. Sometimes the newer Instructors, particularly at the beginning levels or especially with children for some reason are more in tune with teaching at that level than many full cert”s.

I think some of the best advice I got starting out was that we teach FUN, skiing just happens. Of course there is a lot that goes into making that happen, but if you provide that positive experience, well that’s the best advertising.
 

T-Square

Terry
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Maybe this is a hint: My final paycheck from Breckenridge Ski Resort
169311886.jpg

That was the result after multiple federal and state deductions from an original amount of $41.73 I have no idea what that was supposed to compensate me for unless maybe it was time spent in a meeting with supervisors to explain I had to leave Breckenridge ASAP in mid season for health reasons.

This, of course, is posted in humor.

You have framed it, right?
 

surfsnowgirl

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This is a note I got mid season and it made my year. These were a couple of green level skiers who just needed some fine turning. We went up on the chair to the looooon green run and had a blast. They found my supervisor later to give her an envelope with my name on it. In it was a nice tip and this note. It's stuff like this that makes my heart smile, not how much I get paid or how much advertising goes into keeping us busy. This was a group lesson with just the 2 of them so I didn't make much more than 2 hours of minimum wage but these 2 were such a joy, it was fabulous to see their progression and we had the best time so that's what mattered to me. This note was truly the cherry on the ice cream. Plus it made my supervisor happy. Hopefully they'll come back and ask for me but regardless it was a great day and the beer tasted very good at the bar later that day.

IMG_20190605_165707_796.jpg
 
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surfsnowgirl

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That is adorable!

A friend of mine got a slightly less adorable note from a 7 year old a few years ago...

Wow...... I'm going to leave that alone...

Yeah my peeps were a couple probably in their upper 20's/early 30's. I'd love to ski with them again. Their energy was fantastic and they were just a joy.
 
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Kneale Brownson

Making fresh tracks forever on the other side
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You have framed it, right?
It will be once I get all the moving stuff still crowding our new garage cleared away so I can make the frame. I''d use old ski parts but I had to throw all my supply of old skis into one of three 30-yard dumpsters we filled to overflowing when we sold our house with the three-story barn last summer. I only have about nine pairs from our Breckenridge garage and those all have been used in the last two seasons.
 

David Chaus

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I get a kick out of having little kids who I had in my class the previous year, get real excited and call out “look, there’s David, that’s my instructor from last year!” or approach me in the day lodge during lunch and want to tell me all about all kinds of random stuff. You know? They’re including you in their orbit of awareness. It’s pretty cool.
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
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It will be once I get all the moving stuff still crowding our new garage cleared away so I can make the frame. I''d use old ski parts but I had to throw all my supply of old skis into one of three 30-yard dumpsters we filled to overflowing when we sold our house with the three-story barn last summer. I only have about nine pairs from our Breckenridge garage and those all have been used in the last two seasons.

I'd put in my 2 cents, but.....
 

Kneale Brownson

Making fresh tracks forever on the other side
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I get a kick out of having little kids who I had in my class the previous year, get real excited and call out “look, there’s David, that’s my instructor from last year!” or approach me in the day lodge during lunch and want to tell me all about all kinds of random stuff. You know? They’re including you in their orbit of awareness. It’s pretty cool.

One of my more memorable ski instructor moments--reported years ago on Epic--was when a guy about 40 jumped onto a chair with me and said, "You're Kneale, right?" and when I replied in the affirmative, he told me I had taught him how to ski 30 years earlier and now he worked as a ski instructor.
 

Tricia

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True story: Could go long but I'll try to give the Readers Digest version

A boot customer of mine started skiing 6 years ago while I was working at Northstar. He got a lesson from a perfectly qualified instructor (L2) and got a good start to his skiing. When he went back for another private lesson he didn't want her again because (in his words), even though she was a good instructor he didn't feel like he connected with her, and when he saw her free skiing he realized he didn't want to ski like her. Because I know him well and have skied with him, I gave him some good recommendations based on his style and personality. He connected well with the instructor he got and excelled incredibly. Since then he's taken at least one lesson a year and usually asks here or sends me a message for a recommendation.
There are times when I see recommendations given to him on this site that I know are perfectly qualified, are good skiers and great instructors but I don't see them as a good match for my friend.

The point of this story is this.
There are many incredible instructors out there, but the instructor has to match the personality of the student as much as the skill set.
 

Tricia

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. I''d use old ski parts but I had to throw all my supply of old skis into one of three 30-yard dumpsters we filled to overflowing when we sold our house with the three-story barn last summer
:eek:
 

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