Why ski instructors don't advertise themselves?

[Tony S]

Post a clip here and let's see who will take your case

I've already been adopted by the heavy drinkers and disreputable smart assess in the group, so that's a done deal for me personally.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@SallyCat, where in VT?

 

[SallyCat]

@SallyCat, where in VT?

Brownsville; I live on Mt. Ascutney. The only bummer is the nonprofit that runs the place is putting in a T-bar this summer. which means they will now be grooming the lower part of the mountain. That leaves the higher-up and more difficult terrain for those seeking a natural surface, and I'm not sure if that shuts me out.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Oh, you are close to Okemo. I see your point.

 

[Tony S]

Oh, you are close to Okemo. I see your point.

Um, James?

 

[abcd]

On the East Coast PSIA has created a find a pro website where members can list their credentials linked here. .

yes, exactly, this is the format I was looking for.
Unfortunately, my mountain only lists 15 people, only one out of 15 has a couple of paragraphs of introduction. If I would be choosing based on that website, this is the person I would go to.
Also none of the examiners are listed.
I also checked Cannon. Unsurprisingly, Mr and Mr Boyd are not listed...

 

[Tony S]

Unsurprisingly, Mr and Mr Boyd are not listed..

Which brings us back to lack of transparency and access.

 

[abcd]

I also don't pay for vacuous encouragement. (You're doing great. blah, blah." No, dude, I am objectively NOT doing great.

As a pretty terminal intermediate myself, I definitely feel the frustration. Yet, I respectfully disagree with this part.
I started to understand the importance of positive reinforcement after taking a couple of lessons in Quebec. Finding something good and highlighting it i - s an important part of CSIA teaching. Positive feedback must be specific. Not a generic statement like "you're doing great", but rather something that can serve as a solid ground to build upon (e.g. "I like your balance on the outside foot at the end of the turn, however you're holding on to your edges for a little too long, let's try to release a bit earlier to change your turn shape)
Even when I understand that it was said to make me feel better, I can feel that it makes me more receptive and enthusiastic to try things.
It's similar to $9,95. I know that it's 10, but it feels like 9.

 

[Kreative1]

(oh you're level 3 and can do some weirdly specific PSIA drills, like skiing backwards on one snowblade while juggling three machetes and singing "Modern Major General"? Awesome. Do you think you could, like, show up on time and give me some feedback that's more constructive than "let the skis do the work." ?)

That right there explains so many issues PSIA and ski schools have retaining skiers beyond the beginner level. Thank you SallyCat for perfectly summing up a glaring issue across the industry. Yes there are lots of mediocre or just plain terrible instructors (they can ski great but they can't teach anyone anything) and a lot of what determines a positive outcome in a lesson sometimes has little to do with the technical proficiency of the instructor and more so on their teaching and personal skills. I feel your struggles, for an entire season the only thing a "trainer" told me was to "feel my arch". That was it, an entire season, no other explanation, demonstration or anything.

PSIA has over the past few years pushed towards "student first" teaching so maybe in a season or two the message will filter down to the majority of the rank and file instructors so more people will have a positive lesson outcome the first time. Actually teach you as an individual and not use the same canned lesson trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Take some time off and figure out where you want to go and what makes you happy. When you are ready to come back to the table you will have new skills and perhaps a more specific outcome you can clearly communicate to a potential new instructor.

Positive feedback must be specific. Not a generic statement like "you're doing great", but rather something that can serve as a solid ground to build upon (e.g. "I like your balance on the outside foot at the end of the turn, however you're holding on to your edges for a little too long, let's try to release a bit earlier to change your turn shape)

That is the "feedback sandwhich" which has been around for a while and falling out of favor. You compliment the student, let them know what isn't working well, how to fix it/compliment again. Some people like abcd like that style, others will be turned off. Good instructors will figure out how best to coach you but sometimes you may need to be honest/blunt with them and let them know what they are doing isn't working if they aren't figuring it out on their own. It is your well earned money, if you don't like where the lesson is going feel free to speak up. That may sound silly but we are all human and sometimes we just don't match well with other people. Sometimes you just won't click with an instructor/examiner for whatever reason.

 

[Sibhusky]

Continuing the thought, what about a feature where I can upload video of my skiing, with some comments from me, and get matched to an instructor ahead of time, instead of having to go through the tiresome and pointless exercise of hearing three skiers of wildly differing abilities describe themselves to the ski school desk in identical terms?

Sounds like an app in the making. Tinder for ski instruction.

 

[SallyCat]

As a pretty terminal intermediate myself, I definitely feel the frustration. Yet, I respectfully disagree with this part.
I started to understand the importance of positive reinforcement after taking a couple of lessons in Quebec. Finding something good and highlighting it i - s an important part of CSIA teaching. Positive feedback must be specific. Not a generic statement like "you're doing great", but rather something that can serve as a solid ground to build upon (e.g. "I like your balance on the outside foot at the end of the turn, however you're holding on to your edges for a little too long, let's try to release a bit earlier to change your turn shape).

Agree! That's a great example of constructive feedback. I genuinely feel for instructors in that it's hard in an hour or two, or even a day, to get a sense of how the client will take feedback. Being an older female I sometimes feel as though instructors are thinking "Awww, good for you, you can ski blue groomers!" and I'm like "F-You, how do I get into the TREES!?" As a former athlete, I'm used to receiving very blunt and specific criticism, which I value, but I realize might not be everyone's cup of tea. I can understand how a ski school might err on the side of generic encouragement where they should train their staff more on providing the constructive feedback you describe.

(By the way, I said earlier that I got bored this year skiing Okemo and I feel like I should clarify that my boredom had to do with my low skill level and consequent inability to take advantage of the more advanced terrain there. I don't mean to sound as though I'm too "rad" for groomers. I meant to say that I've hit a frustrating plateau where bumps and trees are beyond my ability, but skiing moderate groomers with a mediocre skill-set isn't satisfying either, because I'm neither skiing well nor improving. I hope that makes sense.)

 

[geepers]

Agree! That's a great example of constructive feedback. I genuinely feel for instructors in that it's hard in an hour or two, or even a day, to get a sense of how the client will take feedback. Being an older female I sometimes feel as though instructors are thinking "Awww, good for you, you can ski blue groomers!" and I'm like "F-You, how do I get into the TREES!?" As a former athlete, I'm used to receiving very blunt and specific criticism, which I value, but I realize might not be everyone's cup of tea. I can understand how a ski school might err on the side of generic encouragement where they should train their staff more on providing the constructive feedback you describe.

(By the way, I said earlier that I got bored this year skiing Okemo and I feel like I should clarify that my boredom had to do with my low skill level and consequent inability to take advantage of the more advanced terrain there. I don't mean to sound as though I'm too "rad" for groomers. I meant to say that I've hit a frustrating plateau where bumps and trees are beyond my ability, but skiing moderate groomers with a mediocre skill-set isn't satisfying either, because I'm neither skiing well nor improving. I hope that makes sense.)

Interesting to note PSIA increasing focus as indicated in their Interski 2019 presentations on what makes a great instructor - Teaching and People Skills prominently.

Note Jonathan Ballou's comments on customer feedback. The best thing about a lesson? The instructor. The #1 reason for not coming back? The instructor!


I'm interested in this plateauing thing as I've fairly recently broken out of the one I was on. My big regret is I started this rather late in life and it's race between improvement in technique and degrading ability of the body to keep up.

Here's some thoughts...(you did mention you like direct feedback):

1. Days on snow:
You don't mention how often and for how long you ski.

While it's possible to make progress with limited time on snow per season it does use up the seasons. If skiing only a week per season then it may take 2 or 3 days to back in the groove, an extra day or 2 to re-learn last season's improvement which leaves a very short time to layer on top this season's improvements. If skiing only weekends, then that's 5 days in between to forget everything and de-tune all those new sensations and reflexes.

If possible go ski for a whole month (or even more) in one sitting. It will give you an appreciation for how much better you will be able to perform everything.

This is something I did not understand until I skied 108 days one Canadian winter. That season was the equivalent of 15 seasons of one week ski holidays and without losing days each week getting back up to speed. It brings a whole new level of understanding to being balanced, to sensitivity to the snow and building conditioned reflexes. Plus it allows dedicating time to technique. I once spent 3 days doing nothing but waiting patiently for that outside ski to come around, turn after turn, run and after, on relatively boring terrain, until it became the unconscious norm.

Your intended approach of hiking up for 2 hours to ski down once... That's going to provide the least amount of experience in the maximum time if your aim is to learn to ski well enough to handle bumps and trees. (If you want to have a nice time outdoors and get fit, then it's probably the way to go.)

2. Terrain:
In my view #1 issue skiers who are self-teaching or being taught by family/friends is over-terraining. It's like learning to play the guitar in the middle of a Led Zeppelin concert. We develop skills in a controlled conditions (e.g. gentle terrain) and then test them in progressively more challenging conditions. Learn on the green, test on the mean.

Going straight into the 'more interesting' terrain without appropriate skills is almost certainly going to establish bad, defensive habits that will need to be unwound later. Doesn't mean every run has to be a newb pitch. Just build difficulty slowly and regularly spend time back on the practice pitches restoring form.

3. Realistic goals:
You mention being a former athlete which implies some high degree of competence in that activity. If your aim is to ski the trees and bumps like those ski instructors and ski bums who've spent 100+ days on snow for the last 5/10/15/20+ years or carve the groomers like those ex-racers who started when they were knee high to the grasshoppers then likely you need to think again. Yes, you may be able to get to that level. But only by undergoing the same development and experience path as those people. Learning to ski with exquisite balance and poise takes time on snow. Pick realistic achievement standards and aim for those. (eg. "I aim to ski <name of mild, moderate or steep bump run as appropriate for the season> and feel like I controlled my balance, speed and line throughout.") It's going to take a while to get as good as the best on any mountain.

4. Finding the right ski instructor:
May require some effort and a little investment. Worth it. Ask around. Test drive.

(BTW I've never taken a private lesson, done a heap of group lessons with CSIA instructors and never had a lesson where I didn't learn enough to get value. These days I tend to do multi-day or multi-week courses which means multiple days with the same instructor. Generally a good bet.)

And, always work the lesson. Listen. Ask questions. Make sure to get time following close behind the instructor. And, after the lesson - practice what you've learnt. Heading for the nearest narly bump run is seldom the way to go. (Unless the lesson was on narly bump runs.)

Note: can't see too many instructor giving a frank and fearless assessment of a paying student's skiing. Been largely beaten out of 'em as part of customer service training. (I know in the case of the CSIA it's not the preferred method. Which is to see what can be added to the student's skiing to shift the focus on to a more correct action.) So either ask for specifics ("Is there anything I should stop doing?"). Or Learn to read between the lines. "This will help you have a quieter upper body" likely means "Stop rotating your upper body". "This will increase the mobility of your joints" likely means "OMG you are as rigid as a broom-stick."


Anyway, hope you enjoy the journey. My view is that any day spent on skis is incredible.

 

[fatbob]

I've said it before and been shot down but I'll say it again - the US mode of skiing along with instructor staffing works against customers building trusted continuity or long term relationships with instructors. Take a week's ski vacation in Europe and you can get a week's worth of lessons (usually am or pm) in a group with the same instructor at a modest price because instructors are full time and the vacation model is in single weeks. & yes you can ask to be moved if you don't gel with the instructor.

Now that works if you can get in say a Saturday lesson group at a local hill where offered but not if you are showing up to a new resort as a tourist (Canadian places at least have partial models to address this - Club Ski in Banff/LL, Dave Murray/Ex Canadian etc in Whistler.


& Separate subject but I can only endorse the Don't give up message to the frustrated skier. I'd advise deciding on a hill at which you want to ski. Making an appointment with head of ski school (selling it to them as customer insight) and describe your problems and frustrations and see if they can't find a regular group that will address your needs. Because you won't be the only one and while this forum tends towards a mentality of private lessons are the only way to get your specific needs met, I believe the sharing of "pressure to perform" in a group can actually make you feel better about your skiing.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

@SallyCat I hear ya on the advertisement thing because I'd be hard pressed to take a lesson from someone just because they advertised. I have also had those kind of lessons too where I went I paid for that. I'm a word of mouth/recommendation kinda gal and that means more to me than anything. Bromley does a great job at matching up a student for a private lesson with an instructor they feel is the best match and I love that about it there. As an intermediate myself and someone who teaches green level skiers I'm not qualified to give advice beyond that. That said I've skied with you a bunch of times this past season and in prior seasons and I think you are being too hard on yourself. You have improved and I can see it over the years. I'm looking forward to skiing with you more in upcoming seasons and I look forward to seeing your progression even if you don't see it. I know what skis you have as your daily driver and what you used to ski and skiing these all season long say something all by itself so kudos to you. Groomers can be fun. Maybe something narrower would be fun for those groomer days. I have certain skis I like for certain conditions
I don't know maybe do some demoing, take a private or two from a recommended instructor, ski somewhere new. When you get to a certain point the progression is harder to see because it's granular but you have improved. Don't give up. If you are interested I can give you 5 names of instructors between Magic and Bromley that only teach privates and are excellent instructors.

 

[François Pugh]

I hear you for sure. Thanks for the good advice. (I moved to Vermont last year, btw, and will be working up in the White Mountains starting next month).

I kind of stopped skiing at resorts this past year, not really on purpose, I just got so danged bored skiing groomers over and over. Got a cheap AT setup and started to seek out easy ungroomed terrain. That was the only thing that was fun, because even though I sucked at least it was interesting. So I have a hunch I'm not even going to get a resort pass this year, just seek out whatever baby-backcountry terrain I can find. For example, I live near a defunct resort where the locals keep most of the old trails mown, so it's very possible to find ungroomed terrain that I can safely access. I would way rather climb for two hours to ski one interesting run than go to Okemo, bore my face off, and end up in the bar by noon.

Agree completely about the social aspect, though. Have made great friends and met amazing people on the journey.

I have a blast skiing groomers, even on the little 250' bump where I patrol. even on the green runs.

I think it is because I learned how to carve arc-2-arc (see other thread here on learning to carve), and I use skis that are best suited for carving arc-2-arc turns on groomers when I ski groomers (several skis covering a range of speeds -shorter radius for smaller hills and lower speeds, antique speed skis for very high speeds).

I also enjoy trees, bumps and deep snow when I can get those things. Conditions are much more enjoyable with the right ski for those conditions, and so is learning how to ski those conditions: 68 mm waisted, cambered skis for carving up groomers, 96 to 109 mm waisted rockered skis for trees in deep snow, and a mogul ski for moguls. A compromise ski is not a solution for learning either; it is an ok experience if you already have the skills, but a serious detriment if you don't.

 

[abcd]

As a former athlete, I'm used to receiving very blunt and specific criticism, which I value, but I realize might not be everyone's cup of tea.

I feel like "constructive" feedback is only warranted with respect to the goals of a given lesson, not the overall level of skiing. It adds no value to highlight what you haven't learned in the past 30 years. It does add value to concentrate on what can be done "today" and on the path ahead.
The lack of the path is what I think frustrates you, and this is what I complained about in some other thread. Some people become ski instructors because it actually gives them a curated learning path.
I also subscribe to every word in geepers post

 

[fatbob]

The lack of the path is what I think frustrates you, and this is what I complained about in some other thread. Some people become ski instructors because it actually gives them a curated learning path.

How damning is this? That the way to get best value out of lessons/coaching is to become an instructor so you can access a pathway and the better practioners? Should it not be an expectation for every customer?

I know the root of the problem is in the diversity of the customer base, the timing of demand and a staffing model that has arisen in response to that. It doesn't feel insurmountable for most hills to have a "serious" lesson product involving some multi lesson commitment on both sides in addition to the casual day groups, but the incentives for the hills to commit to this (& the time to promote and wait for it to incubate) seem weak.

 

[4ster]

"feel my arch"

& did you eventually feel your arch?
Of course, if your trainer never told you when, where, how or especially WHY they were asking you to "feel your arch" then I am sure the path was much longer than necessary.

once spent 3 days doing nothing but waiting patiently for that outside ski to come around, turn after turn, run and after, on relatively boring terrain, until it became the uncon

Often, this is what it takes to make an effective positive change. It is up to the teacher/coach to provide the proper feedback, example & direction to keep the student/athlete on track.

My suggestion to the OP would be to find a multi-day camp or workshop that fits their needs and schedule.

 

[James]

PSIA has over the past few years pushed towards "student first" teaching

I think that goes back to 1987, AmericanTeaching System, maybe earlier. Student centered.

I kind of stopped skiing at resorts this past year, not really on purpose, I just got so danged bored skiing groomers over and over. Got a cheap AT setup and started to seek out easy ungroomed terrain. That was the only thing that was fun, because even though I sucked at least it was interesting.

Geez, back country skiing is about the worst way to improve skiing. It's like surfing - you spend the vast majority of time trying to get the wave.
Even Mikaela calculated how little she actually made turns in a day. If she had to walk up her ski time would go down exponentially.
Other people can make skiing more interesting. At Okemo, you should stop being such a wuss and go in the half pipe. Or get a pass to Killington, there's a lot of people who ski together there. If you can't find something interesting at Killington, it's not the mountain.

 

[SallyCat]

Geez, back country skiing is about the worst way to improve skiing. It's like surfing - you spend the vast majority of time trying to get the wave.
Even Mikaela calculated how little she actually made turns in a day. If she had to walk up her ski time would go down exponentially.
Other people can make skiing more interesting. At Okemo, you should stop being such a wuss and go in the half pipe. Or get a pass to Killington, there's a lot of people who ski together there. If you can't find something interesting at Killington, it's not the mountain.

I dunno, it's easy to ski groomers badly season after season and not improve; I've been doing that for four years. It's harder to ski ungroomed, variable snow with bad technique. To each his own, I just find it more fun and interesting to mess around on a varied surface, playing with the terrain, working on my balance, using the skis in different ways, etc. I feel as though I'm learning and figuring things out in a more tangible way than doing drills on groomed snow, I would have quit completely last year had I not had the random chance to ski some easy, ungroomed lift-served terrain after storms a few times and discovered what a blast it is, then tried seeking out the experience on AT skis. Plus the exercise you get from climbing is great.