Are ski areas dying?

[4aprice]

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One of the things I noticed is years ago skiing was about getting to the hill, chalet was to change in, eat and warm up. There was very little else to do (or support from a resort POV).

The base lodge and its surrounding area is now an experience. While great for the none skier, it distracts from skiing (and is a huge expense for the resort).

Makes you wonder what you are paying for, what is required for skiing or all the extra none skiing rated attractions?

Yea but those attractions are what keep the ski area going. Maybe in the old days they could survive on being a 4 to 5 month business, I doubt it today. Don't see how it distracts from the skiing

What I think your paying for is nice decent infrastructure, good grooming, snow making, plus the insurance (a huge cost to the ski areas) and other costs that you don't think about (as a customer) till you have to pay the bill

Have to disagree with the "miss the old days" yearnings some have. I've been skiing for 50 + years and I don't miss anything about the "old days". From the snow conditions, to the lifts to the equipment, I think the sport is so much better now.

 

[Vcize]

One of the things I noticed is years ago skiing was about getting to the hill, chalet was to change in, eat and warm up. There was very little else to do (or support from a resort POV).

The base lodge and its surrounding area is now an experience. While great for the none skier, it distracts from skiing (and is a huge expense for the resort).

Makes you wonder what you are paying for, what is required for skiing or all the extra none skiing rated attractions?

I can't imagine that a bunch of packed to the gills restaurants/bars, ski shops with $200 mittens flying off the shelves, and $1.5 million 2 bedroom condos are a loss leader for the resorts.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I can't imagine that a bunch of packed to the gills restaurants/bars, ski shops with $200 mittens flying off the shelves, and $1.5 million 2 bedroom condos are a loss leader for the resorts.

At the local resort, these same said shops are not doing so well (suspect rent is to high) and most pass through to window shop. While ritzy condos, AirBNB’s and the like populate the bottom, parking near the hill is now next to none existent (sound familiar), lift tickets an arm and a leg, and cheap hotdog and drink $20.00. It gets un-affordable fast.

@4aprice I’ve been skiing for that length time as well. While equipment sure makes it easier to look good it doesn’t make you a good skier. I’d ski the simpler lifts and less groomed conditions for a lower cost. This is what made you a good skier.

My feeling is be a ski area, don’t go for the year round entertainment area. Otherwise it should be called All Around Entertainment Hill.....with the bi-line “And we offer skiing sort of....”

 

[Vcize]

At the local resort, these same said shops are not doing so well (suspect rent is to high) and most pass through to window shop. While ritzy condos, AirBNB’s and the like populate the bottom, parking near the hill is now next to none existent (sound familiar), lift tickets an arm and a leg, and cheap hotdog and drink $20.00. It gets un-affordable fast.

My comment was in regards to the "and gets expensive for the resort" part.

I have a hard time to believe any of those things you mentioned are costing the resort money. It seems like they are all, rather easily, doing the complete opposite for them.

 

[Sibhusky]

I know the growth of mountain biking made a huge difference to the bottom line here. And that's fine. I'm not up there in the summer.

 

[oldschoolskier]

My comment was in regards to the "and gets expensive for the resort" part.

I have a hard time to believe any of those things you mentioned are costing the resort money. It seems like they are all, rather easily, doing the complete opposite for them.

At what cost, while it may momentarily increase the bottom line it bleeds your customer base to death which ultimately leads to the resorts demise.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I know the growth of mountain biking made a huge difference to the bottom line here. And that's fine. I'm not up there in the summer.

This is an added bonus using existing facilities without adding artificial ones. Smart fit not forced fit.

 

[Seldomski]

Ski area and ski resort are two different things. Some 'ski areas' may be transforming into 'ski resorts', which typically have lodging, dining, shopping, and other forms of non-skiing activities in close proximity to the base area.

The resorts push 'conspicuous consumption' and luxury as part of the overall experience. They are targeting destination travelers who want an easier 'ski experience' or vacation. Especially those willing to part with some $$ if it makes things easier. None of this is new - amusement parks, movie theaters, music concerts, inclusive resorts, etc all do it. High end entertainment prices are going up across the board and skiing (at a resort) is included in that.

Not sure the 'resorts' are bleeding their customers dry... the skier participation rates look pretty even to me while skiable acres are flat or declining (speculation?). Meanwhile populations continue to grow, so the income percentile the resorts tap can go up as well. Hence, costs go up faster than general inflation.

 

[pchewn]

I don't think ski areas are dying. There are about 40 (yes fourty) ski-lift projects slated for the summer of 2020 -- and that's just in North America. I can't imagine building 40 lifts for a dying sport ......

Ski lift project list 2020 North America.

 

[rocdoc]

Another article discussing a sad future: https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/snow-skiing-climate-change-intl/index.html

 

[Sibhusky]

I don't think ski areas are dying. There are about 40 (yes fourty) ski-lift projects slated for the summer of 2020 -- and that's just in North America. I can't imagine building 40 lifts for a dying sport ......

Ski lift project list 2020 North America.

That's discouraging. I was hoping one of the projects here would get off the ground. There's going to be a new (replacement) lift and two used (one realigned, one new installation) lifts put in.... One of these days. I was hoping that would all start this summer.

 

[Big J]

We've seen similar reports from other areas. The question that I've yet to see answered by the management is how many of those who now have the Epic (or IKON) pass had the traditional pass at _________ area? Is the Epic pass now THE pass at Steven's or is there a Stevens pass and the Epic only allows limited days?

Stevens Pass does have their own weekday only pass. This is the pass my wife and I used to buy. The price has been raised quite a bit. We now get the Epic Military Pass as I am a veteran and she qualifies as a dependent. It is roughly half off of the normal price with minimal restrictions that do not affect us.

 

[Slide of Hans]

Another small ski area has died. Sleeping Giant WY. play some pretty good information on the economics of a small operation

Sleeping Giant Ski Area to close next season

CODY — As it stands today, Sleeping Giant Ski Area will bring its chairlifts to a halt next season, suspending its winter operations.

www.google.com

 

[QueueCT]

All this focus on costs ... our local bump in CT (2 hours from NYC) has 650 vertical feet and caters to families. Cost for an under 12 child, rental, 90 minute lesson and all day lift ticket is $129 on the weekend. Bring your own food though, lunch will add $15 per person.

Better yet, a package of 2 hour lessons, every Saturday or Sunday for 7 weeks, plus junior season pass, is $850. Add in the $95 for a season rental package at the local ski shop and you're under $1,000 for a ski season that has stretched from Thanksgiving to the end of March each of the last 5 years. Inexpensive? No, not really, but to get unlimited skiing plus equipment plus 14 hours of lessons it's pretty reasonable. It's a feeder mountain, good for teaching the kids (and adults) but not something thrilling for accomplished skiers. On the other hand, my technique has improved significantly over the past 5 years since I've had to keep myself occupied and interested.

We've had plenty of rain this season, including a weekend of 70 degree temps, and the mountain has been consistently delivered exceptional conditions given the weather. And we have the place to ourselves because no one is thinking about skiing when they look out their front door and see grass. The mountain is making money from season pass holders, kids programs, walk up rates for the 2 day a year skiers and a new tubing park they put in. They've figured out how to budget for snow making costs and infrastructure improvements. Over the past 5 years they've expanded the lodge and added a new building where all the kid's programs can have lunch. They're very conservative and have made it work for 75 years.

Can those NYC families drive an extra 2 hours to reach southern and mid-VT? Sure, but prices go up significantly and it's no longer a day trip so lodging comes into play. If I have the money, I'd rather have a condo at a resort and ski a bigger mountain. But, if money is a factor, there are plenty of places in New England to teach the kids and not break the bank.

 

[pchewn]

One of our local bumps is Cooper Spur. A whole family season pass is $479, which includes rental equipment. For a 350' vertical one-chairlift area that is open Fri night, Saturday and Sunday.

If they happen to not have enough snow at Cooper Spur, your ticket is then good at Mt Hood Meadows.

This is a great way for family to learn to ski on a reasonable budget.

 

[nunyabiz]

I have not skied at Cooper Spur but I do enjoy the place in general. It’s quite lovely.

 

[frontfive]

I just posted an article on Veterans Memorial in NH. Small community hill, for a $25 family membership you get free access to the equipment room- nicely stocked with modern donated gear. Then they work with community businesses to sponsor free ski days. For a $400 donation the hill is open 10-4 & serves on average of 100 people for free! All are welcome & no one is turned away. There are 13 free days being offered this season.

 

[MAP]

My take, and a somber one for my first post on this forum, but a lot of people simply don't have enough time to get out and ski, and when we do the conditions and prices are worse than in times past. In high school I could get a group of friends together to hit the hills 7-10 times in a 4 month season, with another 5+ days skiing with dad and family. Now the ski season is 3 months long with worse and worse conditions here on the East Coast. Tickets have gotten ridiculously expensive to justify a mediocre day with rude crowds, inexperienced skiers/boarders on the slopes and bummy terrain. To make matters worse a lot of resorts out here rarely have their diamonds and double diamonds open, and only for a short couple of weeks if they do open at all. This further compacts the crowds and tears up the slopes that are open all the more. Also: I just do not get the same amount of vacation time that members of the previous generation got when they were my age and it's hard to motivate for a weekend trip at double the ticket prices versus mid-week.

 

[MAP]

This is a key question, and it applies now to 2 hills in PA bought by Vail. I can’t imagine that all the skiers at these 2 hills would purchase an Epic pass to ski there.

Epic bought out more than just those two hills, looking it up it looks like 6. Years ago Liberty, Roundtop, and Whitetail were owned by the same company and then they were also bought out by Peak. Anyway, the Epic Pass might make sense if you're also planning a trip out West or a couple up to New England.

 

[LKLA]

Epic bought out more than just those two hills, looking it up it looks like 6. Years ago Liberty, Roundtop, and Whitetail were owned by the same company and then they were also bought out by Peak. Anyway, the Epic Pass might make sense if you're also planning a trip out West or a couple up to New England.

Vail bought 17 hills when it bought Peak, 5 of which were in PA.