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Are ski areas dying?

Nathanvg

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Interesting video I ran across. The high point are quotes from sugarbush's president. A lot of the rest is fluff.

I'm not sure where they got there stats. NSAA stats show skier days per skier are stable as are skier days per year. http://www.nsaa.org/media/378733/participants2019.pdf

My take is that skiing isn't growing very slowly with more skiers going to the big ski areas and less to the small ones. We'll likely lose more of the small ski areas but I don't foresee any major changes.
 

fatbob

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Something is wrong with that data - 57.1m visits in 18/19 is only at or below the level of previous years in 07/8 09/10 and 10/11, when we know that Ikon definitely ruined skiing in 2019......

If I had to guess the megapasses will influence redistribution of skier days among "big" and feeder hills for a few years as long as the economy and climate holds. But hit a major downturn in either and the "travel to ski" market will take a hit.
 
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LKLA

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Something is wrong with that data - 57.1m visits in 18/19 is only at or below the level of previous years in 07/8 09/10 and 10/11, when we know that Ikon definitely ruined skiing in 2019......

If I had to guess the megapasses will influence redistribution of skier days among "big" and feeder hills for a few years as long as the economy and climate holds. But hit a major downturn in either and the "travel to ski" market will take a hot.

While overall skier visits have indeed been flat/stable - for a looong time - that does not impede certain mountains or specific season pass offerings from seeing an increase in visitations (nor does it unfortunately prevent some mountains or season pass offerings from experiencing a decline).

What has happened in the last few years is that this flat/stable base of skiers has concentrated significantly across a small number of resorts and season passes (not sure how customer behavior has impacted equipment brands - seems like some are suffering while others are thriving). There are well over 400 ski resorts in the US alone, yet it seems 80% of skiers mostly visit just 20% of the resorts. The same goes for season passes. There are at least a handful of season pass offerings, yet it seems 80% of skiers buy just one or two.

The main reason this is happening seems to be that Epic and Ikon offer great value, and do so for people with different opinions on what that value is based on. For some they value may be based on cost, for others it is largely derived from snow conditions, and for some the value is based on how many resorts they can ski at or what amenities they get with the pass. Epic and Ikon offer value across all these variables - the fact people are buying them like crazy reflects that.

A similar dynamic happens with movies or restaurants. There are dozens of movies showing on any one weekend, yet on most weekends you have 80% of movie goers watching just 20% of the movies at theaters. There are ample restaurants to choose from in most cities, yet 20% of them fully booked most of the time while the other 80% are mostly empty. People see "value" in those movies or restaurants that they don't see in the others.
 
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jack97

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My take is that skiing isn't growing very slowly with more skiers going to the big ski areas and less to the small ones. We'll likely lose more of the small ski areas but I don't foresee any major changes.

W. Smith gave some good insights, one of them, the retention rate of new skiers/riders was small. He placed an interesting policy of giving a season pass if you took x numbers of lessons.

IMO, here near the metro west New England, the small areas are thriving because the economy is thriving as well. Skiing was always a disposable income activity. Last year, the small areas I visited, Pats Peak and Crotched were extremely busy in the weekends.
 

HardDaysNight

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^^^Doesn’t sound like ski areas are dying then! Quite the contrary. They’re bursting at the seams - except maybe in the Midwest.
 

CalG

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Interesting number...
1 in 4 skiers in VT. ski at the bump I call my home mountain.
 

LKLA

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^^^Doesn’t sound like ski areas are dying then! Quite the contrary. They’re bursting at the seams - except maybe in the Midwest.

Some ski areas are dying and some are doing well. Then again you can say that about most other segments (many golf clubs where I live are closing or offering incentives to become a member while many others are hiking their membership fees and have become nearly impossible to join).

You need to have snow, be open a lot of days, have snow, be open for the season early and close late, have snow, offer a competitively priced season pass, have snow, offer diverse and ample terrain, have snow, have nice amenities, have snow, be able to manage crowds, have snow, poses a history/brand recognition, and, have snow.

The areas that are doing well offer all or most of the above. The areas that are not doing well offer few if any of the above.
 
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HardDaysNight

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^^^Seems reasonable to me. The only question would be why resorts that don’t have snow, aren’t open sufficient days a season and don’t have ample and diverse terrain ever existed in the first place.
 

Sibhusky

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People had cars that only went 35 MPH so they stayed closer to home. The areas charged a hell of a lot less, so the skier didn't have to justify the expense of a major outing by having memorable conditions. We were in those halcyon days we all remember from our childhood where these areas got more snow.
 

DanoT

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Ski resorts in British Columbia have been doing very well the past few years. Of the ones that I have visited, all have some sort of new lifts, new lodges, and new support buildings and equipment. The list includes:
Sun Peaks
Silver Star
Revelstoke
Whitewater
Red
I assume that all of them as well as other B.C. resorts have experienced annual increases in skier visits these last few years, and enough of an increase to result in widespread resort facilities expansion.
 

François Pugh

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"we have to understand how to teach people"

You cold start by paying your ski instructors a decent wage to make it a worthwhile career choice, instead of overcharging for lessons and under-paying your instructors because you can. Cheap never-ever lessons are a start, but far from the solution. You need to keep newish skiers coming back for more lessons, instead of having most folk decide the lessons are too expensive (once they get beyond the first couple of lessons).

Instead, what we see is milking that cash cow called the (monopoly) ski school. Short term gain at the expense of long term health. Or there's the other model: cater to the smaller, but more profitable wealthy market segment who will pay big bucks, and forget about the rest.
 

Big J

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My home area is Stevens Pass Resort in Washington State. I have had a pass there for years and now have the Epic pass that includes this area. It has become so crowded that all lots are often full an hour or more before they are even open on the weekends. They just send you home. I buy passes for my wife and myself a year in advance and cannot get weekend parking. A lot of seasons pass holders are pretty angry about this. Not everyone can ski weekdays only. Just read the reviews for the area and you will see what I am referring to.
 

Andy Mink

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My home area is Stevens Pass Resort in Washington State. I have had a pass there for years and now have the Epic pass that includes this area. It has become so crowded that all lots are often full an hour or more before they are even open on the weekends. They just send you home. I buy passes for my wife and myself a year in advance and cannot get weekend parking. A lot of seasons pass holders are pretty angry about this. Not everyone can ski weekdays only. Just read the reviews for the area and you will see what I am referring to.
We've seen similar reports from other areas. The question that I've yet to see answered by the management is how many of those who now have the Epic (or IKON) pass had the traditional pass at _________ area? Is the Epic pass now THE pass at Steven's or is there a Stevens pass and the Epic only allows limited days?
 

Wendy

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There’s a lot to unpack in that video.

Not mentioned in this thread is the income of the average millennial, which is lower than the average baby boomer.

Multipasses are a great value, IF one can afford the time and money to travel.

Vail just purchased two small, old ski hills in the Poconos, Jack Frost and Big Boulder. These 2 areas cater to two different populations: Families from the metro NYC/Philly area who have 2nd homes and disposable income, and working class people from northeast PA. If the Epic pass becomes the only pass offered to skiers of these 2 hills, then many of the working class people will get priced out. These people largely only ski locally, maybe up to 10 days a season.

As a result of Vail’s ownership. ski industry employees (shop employees, ski hill employees) have seen a decrease in ski benefits along with increased prices. As a ski shop employee, I used to get a pass good for those 2 hills only....now, all the employees at my shop (about a dozen) have to share 2 passes that are only good on weekdays and also have blackout days. If more than 2 employees want to ski together, you’re out of luck. Because the pay is crap, the incentive to work there was the pass....now, that has evaporated.

I teach part time at my local hill, and also work at the ski school desk. It doesn’t take many days of booking lessons to discover that those who regularly get instruction are high wage earners.

Another local hill, Blue Mountain, now charges weekend rates for Thursdays and Fridays. So only Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays are weekdays, according to them.

Climate change is a factor that will increase in influence over time, even in the West. Locally, there were several small ski hills that enjoyed steady participation in the 50’s to 80’s......now, many people are surprised to learn they even existed.

If the industry keeps tending towards multI passes with no local pass option, even if we reside in the West, I may revert to Nordic skiing as my on snow sport....
 
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Wendy

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We've seen similar reports from other areas. The question that I've yet to see answered by the management is how many of those who now have the Epic (or IKON) pass had the traditional pass at _________ area? Is the Epic pass now THE pass at Steven's or is there a Stevens pass and the Epic only allows limited days?

This is a key question, and it applies now to 2 hills in PA bought by Vail. I can’t imagine that all the skiers at these 2 hills would purchase an Epic pass to ski there.
 

Andy Mink

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This is a key question, and it applies now to 2 hills in PA bought by Vail. I can’t imagine that all the skiers at these 2 hills would purchase an Epic pass to ski there.
Is the Epic pass the only one offered at JF and BB? Funny thing is I grew up right there but never skied either area. Camelback was closer
 

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