Why is syncro skiing the pinnacle of ski teaching?

[PeteW]

Matching whatever the person in front is doing regardless of terrain or surface.

See the post from New Zealand team member Josh Duncan Smith

What an absolute honour to take a run with @stefanobelingheri this morning. He came up to me at the top of the demo slope and said “can I follow you down here” we have never skied together before. This run demonstrates his skill in the way is synced in and mirrored my movements on a bumpy run without ever practicing before hand, very impressive stuff. Thank you for the run Stefano it was a pleasure!

 

[Swede]

This discussion kind of amazes me. What do you think of when you think of the pinnacle of skiing?

I think of Shiffrin and Hirscher (and a few others too). The best tech skiers on the The World Cup. To me they're the pinnacle of alpine skiing.

 

[Mike King]

I think of Shiffrin and Hirscher (and a few others too). The best tech skiers on the The World Cup. To me they're the pinnacle of alpine skiing.

Sure of their discipline. But take those folk and put them in the terrain park, or in a free ride comp, or on a spine in Alaska or couloir at La Grave, and they would be posers. Remember this film?


There are many disciplines of alpine skiing. Just like a mountain range, there isn't a single pinnacle -- there are many cols, and what might be required to ascend one might be a different blend than what's required to ascend another.

@Loki1's response was really insightful -- synchro skiing is about adaptability. That's a mark of an expert skier.

Mike

 

[Swede]

Sure of their discipline. But take those folk and put them in the terrain park, or in a free ride comp, or on a spine in Alaska or couloir at La Grave, and they would be posers. Remember this film?


There are many disciplines of alpine skiing. Just like a mountain range, there isn't a single pinnacle -- there are many cols, and what might be required to ascend one might be a different blend than what's required to ascend another.

@Loki1's response was really insightful -- synchro skiing is about adaptability. That's a mark of an expert skier.

Mike

@Mike King
Question from @Loki1 was "what do you think of when you think of the pinnacle of skiing"? My answer: I think it is the World Cup. I have seen that clip. Not sure what your point is there? To me it shows just what a versatile package a racer like Aksel is. He can be thrown into a completely different context, adapt and ... rip. I bet he can ski pretty too, if you ask him nicely More uncertain on what the outcome would be if you'd put one of those demo skiers in the start gate of Hahnenkamm or on the La Face or Gran Risa GS. But you're right. There are a lot of different diciplines. Some may think that ski ballet is the pinnacle? Or synchro skiing? I think it is world cup racers and I am too old and have seen too much to change my mind. Each to their own I guess. Have a great weekend.

 

[markojp]

I think of Shiffrin and Hirscher (and a few others too). The best tech skiers on the The World Cup. To me they're the pinnacle of alpine skiing.

I doubt anyone at interski would argue with you .

 

[markojp]

The only people arguing who or what's better are here on the interwebz. Most at the top have a load of respect for each other.

 

[Mike King]

@Mike King
Question from @Loki1 was "what do you think of when you think of the pinnacle of skiing"? My answer: I think it is the World Cup. I have seen that clip. Not sure what your point is there? To me it shows just what a versatile package a racer like Aksel is. He can be thrown into a completely different context, adapt and ... rip. I bet he can ski pretty too, if you ask him nicely More uncertain on what the outcome would be if you'd put one of those demo skiers in the start gate of Hahnenkamm or on the La Face or Gran Risa GS. But you're right. There are a lot of different diciplines. Some may think that ski ballet is the pinnacle? Or synchro skiing? I think it is world cup racers and I am too old and have seen too much to change my mind. Each to their own I guess. Have a great weekend.

Sure, Aksel was able to freeski in the first season, but it took him 7 years before he really became accomplished at it. To use a car analogy, one person might think that F1 is the pinnacle of autos, but take a Ferrari F1 car and you can't even navigate the streets of New York. A rally car would be able to do so, but wouldn't handle the rigors of off-roading in Moab or running the Indy 500. It is somewhat pointless to look at a single discipline and define that as the pinnacle for an entire genre of applications.

Similarly in skiing. There are elements of race technique that may have application in off-piste technical skiing, but there are many aspects of the race blend that not only are less relevant, they can get you in trouble in a hurry. Look at the problems that CSIA Level 4 trainers from Eastern Canada have when they confront the steep technical terrain of Blackcomb -- they either quickly find that their mantra of what constitutes good skiing doesn't apply in those situations and develop a new blend, or they quickly retreat to the hard snow and less steep terrain of eastern Canada.

The question that was originally asked by @Josh Matta was why is synchro skiing considered the pinnacle of teaching? I'm not sure that it really is, but there's no doubt that synchro skiing is a part of interski. And as @Loki1 so insightfully commented, synchro skiing is a task that requires and demonstrates adaptability and versatility. That's not something that is really demonstrated in World Cup ski racing. And while Aksel did ok in his first foray into free ride film, there's a ton of stories about World Cup champions who could not even navigate a deep inbounds off day let alone a heli trip because their technique blend was too singularly focused on skiing gates in hard snow.

So back to teaching. There’s no doubt that the World Cup has something to show us about technique. It should not be the be-all and end-all nor the singular focus of those of us who teach skiing, in my opinion. Few of our clients, if any, aspire to become a World Cup racer, and perhaps a few more do aspire to run gates. Rather, ski instruction is about versatility, not only in the level of the client we are teaching, but in the application our clients seek or even what the clients look for us to provide. So is it surprising that an international convention of ski instructors (some of whom actually are former World Cup competitors, by the way) has tasks that demonstrate versatility in technique?

Mike

 

[James]

Look at the problems that CSIA Level 4 trainers from Eastern Canada have when they confront the steep technical terrain of Blackcomb -- they either quickly find that their mantra of what constitutes good skiing doesn't apply in those situations and develop a new blend, or they quickly retreat to the hard snow and less steep terrain of eastern Canada.

How would I look at that? Interested.

 

[Swede]

Sure, Aksel was able to freeski in the first season, but it took him 7 years before he really became accomplished at it. To use a car analogy, one person might think that F1 is the pinnacle of autos, but take a Ferrari F1 car and you can't even navigate the streets of New York. A rally car would be able to do so, but wouldn't handle the rigors of off-roading in Moab or running the Indy 500. It is somewhat pointless to look at a single discipline and define that as the pinnacle for an entire genre of applications.

Similarly in skiing. There are elements of race technique that may have application in off-piste technical skiing, but there are many aspects of the race blend that not only are less relevant, they can get you in trouble in a hurry. Look at the problems that CSIA Level 4 trainers from Eastern Canada have when they confront the steep technical terrain of Blackcomb -- they either quickly find that their mantra of what constitutes good skiing doesn't apply in those situations and develop a new blend, or they quickly retreat to the hard snow and less steep terrain of eastern Canada.

The question that was originally asked by @Josh Matta was why is synchro skiing considered the pinnacle of teaching? I'm not sure that it really is, but there's no doubt that synchro skiing is a part of interski. And as @Loki1 so insightfully commented, synchro skiing is a task that requires and demonstrates adaptability and versatility. That's not something that is really demonstrated in World Cup ski racing. And while Aksel did ok in his first foray into free ride film, there's a ton of stories about World Cup champions who could not even navigate a deep inbounds off day let alone a heli trip because their technique blend was too singularly focused on skiing gates in hard snow.

So back to teaching. There’s no doubt that the World Cup has something to show us about technique. It should not be the be-all and end-all nor the singular focus of those of us who teach skiing, in my opinion. Few of our clients, if any, aspire to become a World Cup racer, and perhaps a few more do aspire to run gates. Rather, ski instruction is about versatility, not only in the level of the client we are teaching, but in the application our clients seek or even what the clients look for us to provide. So is it surprising that an international convention of ski instructors (some of whom actually are former World Cup competitors, by the way) has tasks that demonstrate versatility in technique?

Mike

I think you are venturing off here Mike, but anyways... I just answered a questions that @Loki1 threw out, ok?

"What do you think of when you think of the pinnacle of skiing?"

 

[scott43]

The only people arguing who or what's better are here on the interwebz. Most at the top have a load of respect for each other.

Yeah and that's what kind of struck me. The people that I know who are true experts are really in a class of their own. Every little thing they do is finding tools for their toolbox. And they communicate with each other at a whole different level..getting ideas and trying stuff. If you or I were to talk to them, they speak in platitudes and simplicity..because the truth is, what they do can't be communicated to people very easily. It's a physical AND mental thing.

 

[Mike King]

How would I look at that? Interested.

Reported to me by a CSIA Level 4 trainer at WB.

Mike

 

[Slasher]

synchro skiing is a task that requires and demonstrates adaptability and versatility. That's not something that is really demonstrated in World Cup ski racing.

Isn't the purpose of setting a difficult course to force Alpine WC athletes to be versatile? Which sometimes results in "ugly" skiing (stivots, crazy arms).

Look at the problems that CSIA Level 4 trainers from Eastern Canada have when they confront the steep technical terrain of Blackcomb -- they either quickly find that their mantra of what constitutes good skiing doesn't apply in those situations and develop a new blend, or they quickly retreat to the hard snow and less steep terrain of eastern Canada.

How would I look at that? Interested.

At the risk of thread derail...

The only way to really look at that would be to spectate CSIA L4 exams or regularly attend training with L4s and L4 candidates, i.e. work at Whistler Blackcomb as an L3 or L4

But rumours like what @Mike King mentioned have been spread around forever in CSIA-land, especially in Whistler. Could be somewhat legit, could also just be Whistler snobbery. One particularly nasty rumour was that one fellow failed the L4 exam in the West, flew out East a few weeks later, passed his exam there, and was ostracized when he got back -- apparently the top dog at Whistler was fuming and never, ever looked him in the eye again. Names have been withheld to protect the innocent.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Sure it show versatility but it just seems odd to me, I am just watching the videos coming out from interski and its is great skiing by almost all the team, but honestly couldnt we show the best and brightest of the profession, in a different way?

I’m only guessing here in that this format showcases no matter the size, strength etc of the individual, the methodology of the system produces the same result in a group. Now selecting team is staking the deck to minimize this variation. Two different objectives, showcasing vs winning.

Now could there be better methods, don’t know, but seeing it in action it does look good.

 

[oldschoolskier]

A lot of

Sure of their discipline. But take those folk and put them in the terrain park, or in a free ride comp, or on a spine in Alaska or couloir at La Grave, and they would be posers. Remember this film?


There are many disciplines of alpine skiing. Just like a mountain range, there isn't a single pinnacle -- there are many cols, and what might be required to ascend one might be a different blend than what's required to ascend another.

@Loki1's response was really insightful -- synchro skiing is about adaptability. That's a mark of an expert skier.

Mike

A lot of the top freeskiers, are from the race world, just not good enough to be at the top, but crazy enough to be the best freeskiers.

Anyone at the high level could be the top, no matter the displine. It’s just luck on a day which determines where they end up.

Those at the top still do it for the same reason, FUN! And continue to do it for the same reason.

 

[Mike King]

Isn't the purpose of setting a difficult course to force Alpine WC athletes to be versatile? Which sometimes results in "ugly" skiing (stivots, crazy arms).





At the risk of thread derail...

The only way to really look at that would be to spectate CSIA L4 exams or regularly attend training with L4s and L4 candidates, i.e. work at Whistler Blackcomb as an L3 or L4

But rumours like what @Mike King mentioned have been spread around forever in CSIA-land, especially in Whistler. Could be somewhat legit, could also just be Whistler snobbery. One particularly nasty rumour was that one fellow failed the L4 exam in the West, flew out East a few weeks later, passed his exam there, and was ostracized when he got back -- apparently the top dog at Whistler was fuming and never, ever looked him in the eye again. Names have been withheld to protect the innocent.

Sure, there's lots of crazy recoveries in WC racing. There's no powder or crud skiing in WC racing. You get to inspect the course before skiing it. No crazy trees, strange and chopped off bumps, cliffs, reading terrain with rocks and tree hazards, etc. The skills are predominantly pressure and edge with much less emphasis on rotary skills. I didn't say there was no versatility in WC racing, but the WC racing scene focuses on skiing gates on hard snow. As a consequence, WC racing does not really explore the different skill blends that are required for WC mogul skiing, WC freestyle, or (even further from the skill blend) free ride.

The fundamental skills are the same in all skiing, but the blends are different. Try skiing steep bumps like those that form in Saudan's with high edge angles or early pressure. I doubt that is going to go very well. Or skiing that line recently posted from the Troll Wall.

I think you guys are mistaking my point. It wasn't that WC racing is great and that there is nothing to learn from WC racing. I look to WC all the time for technique. My point was that alpine skiing is many things, only one of which is racing. And it's not as simple as look to the best skier in any of those disciplines, put them in another, and they will be successful. Rather, each of those disciplines requires different skill blends, different tactics, and different mindset. If you took Hirscher or Schiffrin and put them on a World Freeride face, I doubt either would place. I suspect they would be much more likely to finish last. And if you took a World Freeride champion and put them in a WC slalom, I suspect the same would be true.

So while we all have preferences and types of skiing that we want to do, it really is fruitless to define any discipline or genre as the "pinnacle" of alpine skiing. They all have their place. And we all can learn something from those disciplines.

On the question of eastern vs western Canada, I did not mean to imply that there were different exam levels for L4 in Canada. Rather, that some of the most accomplished eastern skiers have difficulty when the terrain requires a different skill blend than what they ski. Skiing the steeps and extreme terrain at W/B, Kicking Horse, etc. is not something that most skiers have the opportunity to do.

BTW, the individual who related this to me is a former ski racer. His journey required learning a new skill blend. His career has been big mountain free ride skiing. And he sees two types of folk from the east: those whose preconceived ideas about skiing don't allow them to adapt to the terrain and snow conditions they encounter, and others who do. But it does require adaptation.

Mike

 

[Josh Matta]

Yeah you have to a ton more adapting to snow and terrain in the east, than anytime I have ever skied out west...,,

 

[scott43]

My point was that alpine skiing is many things, only one of which is racing. And it's not as simple as look to the best skier in any of those disciplines, put them in another, and they will be successful. Rather, each of those disciplines requires different skill blends, different tactics, and different mindset.
BTW, the individual who related this to me is a former ski racer. His journey required learning a new skill blend. His career has been big mountain free ride skiing. And he sees two types of folk from the east: those whose preconceived ideas about skiing don't allow them to adapt to the terrain and snow conditions they encounter, and others who do. But it does require adaptation.

Mike

The rally and F1 driver comparison is a good example..both are very skilled, but they use the tools in a different way. Sliding the car in rally is great and usually faster. Sliding the car in F1 is scrubbing speed and losing time. Both absolutely at the top of their game..but they're two different things really..neither is better than the other..just different. And the guys at the top don't really care that much..

 

[Mike King]

Yeah you have to a ton more adapting to snow and terrain in the east, than anytime I have ever skied out west...,,

My impression is that there is not extreme terrain such as you find at W/B inbounds in eastern Canada, but I could be mistaken. I doubt it though.

Mike

 

[HardDaysNight]

Well the main thing I’ve learned is that Marcel Hirscher is a poser. I really didn’t know that before!

 

[Swede]

If you took Hirscher or Schiffrin and put them on a World Freeride face, I doubt either would place. I suspect they would be much more likely to finish last. And if you took a World Freeride champion and put them in a WC slalom, I suspect the same would be true.
Mike

It has happened. But it wasn’t Hirscher and he didn’t end up last. Mattias Hargin is a (former) Swedish WC SL racer (retired after this season) that got a wild card to FWT Verbier Xtreme a few seasons ago. He was a solid top ten WC SL skier that podiumed now and then, but not near Hirschers calibre. He came in eight in the Verbier Xtreme after having to ski a compromised line compared to his original plan. Don’t know if you’re familiar with the terrain, but it’s pretty extreme.