There's no need to extend the new outside then
What's the difference between the two?
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Why flex to release
- Thread starter Rod9301
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Beautiful turns. Flex-to-release at its best.
I don't see those as brushed, I see those as carved... even in the tracks, the edges are very well defined - the ski bend does leave a "brushed" looked, but the edge is very well defined, so likely the tail wasn't brushing. Even if the ski would have brushed a bit, I'd still normally consider them carved. It takes considerable skill to carve that tight radius.
Fair enough - a modicum flexing at a recreational blue run level (which is great, even a little goes a long way) is not that hard, agree, although I'd like to see video to confirm that someone "got it" - because most take a while to figure out the right timing, you'll see them flex but then stop flexing just before skis flat and that's not "proper" flexing to release...
I was thinking deep flexing - in my experience, that can take a season or more of work to learn well and work into one's skiing as a natural movement.
I don't see those as brushed, I see those as carved... even in the tracks, the edges are very well defined - the ski bend does leave a "brushed" looked, but the edge is very well defined, so likely the tail wasn't brushing. Even if the ski would have brushed a bit, I'd still normally consider them carved. It takes considerable skill to carve that tight radius.
I think he meant turns around brushes, not brush-carves or brushed turns.
When I teach flex-to-release, the student needs to exert quite a lot of mental control to replace the extension. That habit is so deeply embedded it just won't go away. The habit of rotating the new outside ski to start the turn also continues since it is usually bundled with the extension. Old habits die hard. It takes time and determination.
The only student I've taught to deeply flex is me. And yes, it has taken some seasons to get a true deep flex. Still can't get that knee close to armpit and snow. Work in progress.
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PSIA Central describes Retractions Turns and how to teach them as follows.
Basic Parallel Retraction Turns
Advanced Zone/Level 3 Blended Skills
Activity Description:
In more traditional patterns of skiing, the skier uses extension of the outside leg or both legs from turn transition through initiation phase to decrease the pressure on the skis and redirect the COM into the new turn. In retraction turns, the knees and hips start to flex in the finish phase of the turn and continue flexing through transition and the initiation phase to facilitate the redirection of the COM and edge change. Once the skis have changed edges, the legs begin to extend into and through the shaping phase of the new turn.
Why This Activity Will Be Useful:
The exercise is an introduction to pressure control skill and movements used to manage variable terrain (bumps!) and situations experienced in advanced zone skiing. In contrast to using extension movements of the legs to assist edge release/change and to redirect the COM retraction uses flexion of the ankle, knee and hip joints to manage and release pressure to facilitate edge change and redirection of the CoM from one turn to the next. Retraction is often used when skiing moguls and variable snow. It is also widely used in performance turns and carving.
How the Body Moves (CAUSE):
In the finish phase of the turn, the knee and hip joints of the outside leg flex and the COM begins to move out of the old turn.
In transition, the ankles, knees and hip continue to flex until the joints of both legs are flexed similar amounts. During this time, the feet, ankles and legs begin to tip in the direction of the new turn and the edge angles decrease as skis flatten on the snow.
Continuous tipping/rolling of ankles/feet releases and changes the edges of the skis.
The joints of the legs stay flexed until after edge change is completed.
Extend the knee joints (outside leg more than inside) through shaping phase of turn to move the COM forward. The ankles remain flexed to promote forward movement of COM.
Tipping/rolling movements originate in feet/ankles and occur at similar rate and time.
Rotate legs in the hip joint at same time/rate to control turn shape.
Subtle fore/aft adjustments keep COM centered over base of support
Time the pole swing (and touch if used) help direct CoM into the new turn
What the Skis Do (EFFECT):
Skis maintain parallel relationship and consistent stance width
Skis tip at similar rate and time
Skis turn at similar rate and time
Skis leave brushed tracks in the snow
Skis’ path and turn shape controls speed
Where: Choose a safe low traffic area for this activity.
Groomed green or blue terrain
Learning/Teaching Cues: First have a foundation of basic parallel turns, then expand lower body range of motion.
In more traditional patterns of skiing, the skier uses extension of the outside leg or both legs through the initiation phase to decrease the pressure on the skis. Picture the leg(s) gradually (or rapidly) extending to reach maximum extension often before the fall line.
In retraction turns, the knees and hips flex through the finish phase of the turn, and stay flexed through edge change and into the initiation phase
Once the new turn has begun and the skis begin to turn downhill, the knees and hips (outside knee more than inside knee) extend.
Exercises:
Find a series of rollers on the ski hill. When going over the roller, progressively flex the knees and hips to absorb the terrain. Try to keep your head at a constant level (as opposed to going up when going over the roller). Can also be done while traversing small moguls. Exaggerate the flexion and explore range of motion, and anticipate the terrain undulations. Keep COM moving forward over feet!
As the terrain falls away, extend the knees and hips and move forward to keep up with the skis as they accelerate down the roller or mogul. Use previous exercises (if using moguls instead of rollers, find widely spaced moguls, or small terrain bumps) and place edge change on the top of each roller or on a mogul. Keep the knees flexed THROUGH the edge change. Then extend knees and hips through the shaping phase of the turn. This may feel foreign, and the edge change may seem slow at first.
When comfortable using terrain to assist in timing of retraction, move to groomed terrain. Think of flexing to move COM forward and diagonal thru the edge change.
Practice skiing like the transitions between linked turns happen in a tunnel, where the skier cannot extend or the head will hit the ceiling.
Alternate 3 retraction turns, then 3 extension transition turns, etc.
Explore varied rates, duration and intensity of retraction movements.
Basic Parallel Retraction Turns
Advanced Zone/Level 3 Blended Skills
Activity Description:
In more traditional patterns of skiing, the skier uses extension of the outside leg or both legs from turn transition through initiation phase to decrease the pressure on the skis and redirect the COM into the new turn. In retraction turns, the knees and hips start to flex in the finish phase of the turn and continue flexing through transition and the initiation phase to facilitate the redirection of the COM and edge change. Once the skis have changed edges, the legs begin to extend into and through the shaping phase of the new turn.
Why This Activity Will Be Useful:
The exercise is an introduction to pressure control skill and movements used to manage variable terrain (bumps!) and situations experienced in advanced zone skiing. In contrast to using extension movements of the legs to assist edge release/change and to redirect the COM retraction uses flexion of the ankle, knee and hip joints to manage and release pressure to facilitate edge change and redirection of the CoM from one turn to the next. Retraction is often used when skiing moguls and variable snow. It is also widely used in performance turns and carving.
How the Body Moves (CAUSE):
In the finish phase of the turn, the knee and hip joints of the outside leg flex and the COM begins to move out of the old turn.
In transition, the ankles, knees and hip continue to flex until the joints of both legs are flexed similar amounts. During this time, the feet, ankles and legs begin to tip in the direction of the new turn and the edge angles decrease as skis flatten on the snow.
Continuous tipping/rolling of ankles/feet releases and changes the edges of the skis.
The joints of the legs stay flexed until after edge change is completed.
Extend the knee joints (outside leg more than inside) through shaping phase of turn to move the COM forward. The ankles remain flexed to promote forward movement of COM.
Tipping/rolling movements originate in feet/ankles and occur at similar rate and time.
Rotate legs in the hip joint at same time/rate to control turn shape.
Subtle fore/aft adjustments keep COM centered over base of support
Time the pole swing (and touch if used) help direct CoM into the new turn
What the Skis Do (EFFECT):
Skis maintain parallel relationship and consistent stance width
Skis tip at similar rate and time
Skis turn at similar rate and time
Skis leave brushed tracks in the snow
Skis’ path and turn shape controls speed
Where: Choose a safe low traffic area for this activity.
Groomed green or blue terrain
Learning/Teaching Cues: First have a foundation of basic parallel turns, then expand lower body range of motion.
In more traditional patterns of skiing, the skier uses extension of the outside leg or both legs through the initiation phase to decrease the pressure on the skis. Picture the leg(s) gradually (or rapidly) extending to reach maximum extension often before the fall line.
In retraction turns, the knees and hips flex through the finish phase of the turn, and stay flexed through edge change and into the initiation phase
Once the new turn has begun and the skis begin to turn downhill, the knees and hips (outside knee more than inside knee) extend.
Exercises:
Find a series of rollers on the ski hill. When going over the roller, progressively flex the knees and hips to absorb the terrain. Try to keep your head at a constant level (as opposed to going up when going over the roller). Can also be done while traversing small moguls. Exaggerate the flexion and explore range of motion, and anticipate the terrain undulations. Keep COM moving forward over feet!
As the terrain falls away, extend the knees and hips and move forward to keep up with the skis as they accelerate down the roller or mogul. Use previous exercises (if using moguls instead of rollers, find widely spaced moguls, or small terrain bumps) and place edge change on the top of each roller or on a mogul. Keep the knees flexed THROUGH the edge change. Then extend knees and hips through the shaping phase of the turn. This may feel foreign, and the edge change may seem slow at first.
When comfortable using terrain to assist in timing of retraction, move to groomed terrain. Think of flexing to move COM forward and diagonal thru the edge change.
Practice skiing like the transitions between linked turns happen in a tunnel, where the skier cannot extend or the head will hit the ceiling.
Alternate 3 retraction turns, then 3 extension transition turns, etc.
Explore varied rates, duration and intensity of retraction movements.
^^That is well-described. Central has often had well-written technical material. Thanks, @rcc55125, for posting it.
I identify two types of turn initiations that do not use extension.
The first is flexion turns, or flex-to-release turns. The other is retraction turns.
The turns described by PSIA-C are indeed "retraction turns" as I know them.
In flexion turns, the skier flexes the new inside leg to allow the CoM to cross over the skis. The new outside leg's extension is delayed. It progressively extends till skis reach the fall line, while the inside ski is used to guide the turn's path. Flexion turns do not have any additional flexion of the new outside leg at initiation (that leg is already flexed due to the old turn).
In retraction turns, both legs are shortened in transition, as described in the material above. This works as a down-unweighting move, so that the lightened or even lifted skis can be moved under the body to the other side of the CoM. Skis move much like a pendulum under the torso. They "cross-under" it. Rebound is part of retraction turns when they are done quickly. They are used for slalom-like turns with skier moving downhill in a narrow corridor, at speed. Retraction turns require some athleticism.
Of the two non-extension turn mechanisms, retraction turns are the less versatile method of motoring turns of the two. I am surprised that Central is choosing to promote this initiation method.
Flexion turns are quite versatile. They can be performed at slow or fast speed, in wide corridors or narrow, to produce turns with long, medium, or short radius. The skis do not get lift-off between turns due to unweighting. Flexion turns can be done with low energy, and take less effort than extension turns or retraction turns. Using flexion all day produces less fatigue.
The unweighting inherent in retraction turns can enable or even encourage the skier to push the skis out to an edge, which would be a no-no.
Flexion turns don't encourage pushing to an edge since they keep the outside ski solidly in contact with the snow and focus all the skier's attention on the actions of new inside ski, foot, and leg to shape the turn. I prefer to teach flexion turns to skiers as their first non-extension initiation.
I identify two types of turn initiations that do not use extension.
The first is flexion turns, or flex-to-release turns. The other is retraction turns.
The turns described by PSIA-C are indeed "retraction turns" as I know them.
In flexion turns, the skier flexes the new inside leg to allow the CoM to cross over the skis. The new outside leg's extension is delayed. It progressively extends till skis reach the fall line, while the inside ski is used to guide the turn's path. Flexion turns do not have any additional flexion of the new outside leg at initiation (that leg is already flexed due to the old turn).
In retraction turns, both legs are shortened in transition, as described in the material above. This works as a down-unweighting move, so that the lightened or even lifted skis can be moved under the body to the other side of the CoM. Skis move much like a pendulum under the torso. They "cross-under" it. Rebound is part of retraction turns when they are done quickly. They are used for slalom-like turns with skier moving downhill in a narrow corridor, at speed. Retraction turns require some athleticism.
Of the two non-extension turn mechanisms, retraction turns are the less versatile method of motoring turns of the two. I am surprised that Central is choosing to promote this initiation method.
Flexion turns are quite versatile. They can be performed at slow or fast speed, in wide corridors or narrow, to produce turns with long, medium, or short radius. The skis do not get lift-off between turns due to unweighting. Flexion turns can be done with low energy, and take less effort than extension turns or retraction turns. Using flexion all day produces less fatigue.
The unweighting inherent in retraction turns can enable or even encourage the skier to push the skis out to an edge, which would be a no-no.
Flexion turns don't encourage pushing to an edge since they keep the outside ski solidly in contact with the snow and focus all the skier's attention on the actions of new inside ski, foot, and leg to shape the turn. I prefer to teach flexion turns to skiers as their first non-extension initiation.
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As a HISTORY question, the answer seems pretty clear to me. In the old days, carving was an esoteric skill that only a tiny minority could manage. We had a big up-unweight to clear our skis (which had zero base bevel, and were long) for an easier pivot.
Modern skis make carving easier, and more importantly, much easier to learn, so the whole flex-to-release and carve package makes sense for more people.
Back in the day, as a lightweight who opted for stiff speed skis in order to find stability and who did not ascribe to pivoting (yes I was truant from tradition ski school), I made full use of the dynamic forces of getting high/light and coming down hard on my skis. I didn't unweight the skis to pivot them; I unweighted them so I could get a higher load on them at the times they were weighted. Even though the affect was only temporary; it allowed me to bend the tips and get the carve started. It is still a valuable skill to have, even if not really needed and seldom used.
I think you would agree that you were not a typical recreational skier of that era.
Correct!
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I am puzzled at why much this discussion is couched in the term "turn" when it is really about transitional technique. Which brings up the point that maybe a prereq is that the skier needs to have the appropriate level of carving skills to manage the remaining majority of the turning process.
I think most advanced skiers have multiple transitional "arrows" in their quiver but the application of edging and pressure management skills (although varied) are consistent from turn to turn.
I think most advanced skiers have multiple transitional "arrows" in their quiver but the application of edging and pressure management skills (although varied) are consistent from turn to turn.
Thanks for the clarification. Speaking for myself, I did mix up flex-to-release and retraction turns, at least I put them in the same box.
So for off-piste/pow medium-short turns, you would rather use retraction turns, correct?
For any powder turns, use s flex to release turn.
Flex to release is only part of the lateral aspect --- there is also the tipping of the foot to release the edge. I skied with one of our top trainers here this week working on toppling in the turn. She asked me what were the body mechanics I was using to achieve toppling. I identified two -- allowing the feet to travel beyond my body and flexing the old outside leg. She then asked about the third: tipping the feet. And we played with that all day.
I don't think I've ever had ownership of tipping the feet. A couple of weeks ago, @Tom Gellie was here and gave a two evening clinic that was transformational for me and for many of the others in the clinic. In fact, one of our older instructors, who is an examiner in Eastern and was, for many years, the lead trainer for certification training in Aspen, said it was the best clinic he had ever attended. The focus was on the role of the foot and ankle in skiing. When it comes to tipping the foot (and the ski attached to it), there as some biomechanics that I never fully understood. Tipping the foot comes from the subtalar joint, a joint below the ankle. It is a hinged miter joint. When you tip the foot, you actually rotate the lower leg. And since the foot is like a tripod with three arches (the medial arch on the inside of the foot, the lateral arch on the outside of the foot, and the transverse arch from the first to the fifth metatarsal),
What's the importance of this? It is how to tip the foot. When most people think of tipping the foot, they think about tipping it laterally across the ski, but the biomechanics are such that the foot actually tips along the line from the first or fifth metatarsal to the heel --a bit backwards. And the foot actually rotates outwards from the turn.
What was also amazing about working on tipping the foot backwards along that line is that it opens up the entire posterior chain so that you can angulate to a much greater extent, and with less limitation/pain, than if you tip the foot laterally.
So, what does this have to do with flex to release? You will have much more success, greater speed, and less movement of the hip and upper body if you couple the tipping of the foot with the flexion of the old outside leg. What we worked on was starting the tipping move from the old outside foot. Roll it into the new turn by thinking of pulling the arch up and into the new turn. This is a trigger that also accomplishes the transfer of weight to the new outside ski. And by continuing to dictate the turn from that inside arch, you find body in better alignment to the skis.
Mike
I don't think I've ever had ownership of tipping the feet. A couple of weeks ago, @Tom Gellie was here and gave a two evening clinic that was transformational for me and for many of the others in the clinic. In fact, one of our older instructors, who is an examiner in Eastern and was, for many years, the lead trainer for certification training in Aspen, said it was the best clinic he had ever attended. The focus was on the role of the foot and ankle in skiing. When it comes to tipping the foot (and the ski attached to it), there as some biomechanics that I never fully understood. Tipping the foot comes from the subtalar joint, a joint below the ankle. It is a hinged miter joint. When you tip the foot, you actually rotate the lower leg. And since the foot is like a tripod with three arches (the medial arch on the inside of the foot, the lateral arch on the outside of the foot, and the transverse arch from the first to the fifth metatarsal),
What's the importance of this? It is how to tip the foot. When most people think of tipping the foot, they think about tipping it laterally across the ski, but the biomechanics are such that the foot actually tips along the line from the first or fifth metatarsal to the heel --a bit backwards. And the foot actually rotates outwards from the turn.
What was also amazing about working on tipping the foot backwards along that line is that it opens up the entire posterior chain so that you can angulate to a much greater extent, and with less limitation/pain, than if you tip the foot laterally.
So, what does this have to do with flex to release? You will have much more success, greater speed, and less movement of the hip and upper body if you couple the tipping of the foot with the flexion of the old outside leg. What we worked on was starting the tipping move from the old outside foot. Roll it into the new turn by thinking of pulling the arch up and into the new turn. This is a trigger that also accomplishes the transfer of weight to the new outside ski. And by continuing to dictate the turn from that inside arch, you find body in better alignment to the skis.
Mike
Tom Gellie knows his stuff, especially biomechanics.
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Mike, are you talking about "toppling" in this type of turn?
Sure, but initiation of edge change from tipping the foot is not limited to simply dynamic turns like that -- it is relevant to all edge changes! The timing and rate of untipping the feet depends on the speed and intent of the skier...
My objective in the post above was to bring some of the rest of the package into the flex to release discussion. Flexing to release is a great tool, but it is greatly enhanced with some other pieces of the package such as tipping of the feet.
Mike
My objective in the post above was to bring some of the rest of the package into the flex to release discussion. Flexing to release is a great tool, but it is greatly enhanced with some other pieces of the package such as tipping of the feet.
Mike
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