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Why flex to release

Rod9301

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I was thinking about why the change from extension to flex to release.
If you look at racers in the 80s, all extend to release. Then Tomba changed from extension to flex to release, i think in 89.

If you extend to release, that means the legs were flexed before the extension. With older skis, the edge angles were a lot smaller, so the g forces also a lot smaller. So skiers could withstand the lower g forces with flexed legs.

With modern skis, edge angles are a lot bigger, a lot more g forces, and you needed a pretty straight outside leg to withstand these forces.

So if at the end of the turn the outside leg is straight, it makes sense to flex it to release.

Anyway, one theory.

And i realize that the uphill leg is flexed, so you could extend off it.

What brought this thought?

I saw recently a video of s ski instructor and his legs were flexed in the turn, then he extended to release and transition.
 

LiquidFeet

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If you have a functional reason to get onto new edges as fast as possible, stay low through edge change. To stay low, you will be flexing your old turn's long outside leg and delaying lengthening the old turn's short inside leg. This is flex-to-release.

It's the fastest way to get onto new edges, because the mass of your upper body doesn't have to get tall before moving over the skis. You get to skip the time that vertical motion takes up.

When the old outside leg shortens, the upper body travels a low path over the skis ... and the skis tip onto new edges super quick.

Staying low between turns can also allow you to get your hips closer to the snow before the turn has progressed too far.
 
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Skitechniek

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Two main reasons:
1. Time constraint. In gates a lot of the times you have to ski a radius smaller than the turning radius of the ski. So you need to flex to make the gate without skidding.
2. If you extend on the steeps you load the tails and get ejected. So it is a way to absorb the energy and become light.

However I think I see flexing a bit different than most. It seems to me that a lot of the people here just look at what the old outside leg does. I look at both legs to define flexing.
This clip for me is an example of flexing. Short legs in transition, long legs in the turn (part after the mistake). A lot of the times, especially in gs, the inside leg is bent a lot. Hence one leg flexes and one leg extends while transitioning, which imo is not flexing in its purest form. In those cases you tip the ski as quickly as possible and the end result is your legs being bent while transitioning. The outside knee goes from 130 degrees to 100-ish and the inside knee from 70 degrees to 100-ish. But mentally you are not actively trying to stay as deep as possible, mentally you are tipping the ski's as fast as possible. And I am very much talking from experience here.

Also the 'make your outside leg light to release' is such a farce. When you ski with big angles a lot of the times the release is initiated by the hips. You have to get the hips and CoM to a more centered position closer to your BoS before leg action can take over.

This is from a racing point of view. Why instructors ski like this is just for aesthetics and marketing imo. It doesn't do anything for their performance, but it makes them interesting for the common folk. Their skiing however has 0 application in racing.
 
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James

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Then Tomba changed from extension to flex to release, i think in 89.
It’s a choice in racing. Some people choose to make it the only way to ski recreationally. Find me a racer free skiing who flexes all the time. Never seen it. They just don’t ski like McGlashan or Japanese technical skiers.

Tomba in 1992. Hardly call that flexing all the time. He’s on straight skis.

 
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oldschoolskier

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Tomba’s deal was a slight kick to the tails of the ski to load them and then use the energy to accelerate the transition, I was copying it after I read about it. It was having turbos kick in. You had to get the timing right though.
 
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Rod9301

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No big deal, but i don't think you guys are resting my post, just the headline.
 

karlo

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I find that a flex to release allows faster edge change, which, to get to a higher edge angle in shorter turns ( medium vs long, short vs medium) is beneficial. I also find, when flexed, my hip is more flexible (which may relate to the faster edge change).
 

dbostedo

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No big deal, but i don't think you guys are resting my post, just the headline.
I read your post, and I don't quite understand what you're getting at that isn't summarized in the headline.

Are you theorizing that people used to ski more outside-leg-flexed all the time, allowing them to extend to release, and that now they are already skiing with outside leg fully extended, the option to flex-to-release is more prevalent?

What, in other words, is the exact question you're looking to answer?

Personally, I was wondering if there was any reason to think that you need more up and down movement on the old straight skis, in order to bend them, which lends itself less to flex-to-release. I only skied straight skis as a brand new learner, so have no idea.
 

razie

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A few reasons come to mind...

It is the most efficient: your body has momentum down the slope and all you do is remove what's between the body and the down the slope direction, at the end of the turn: the outside leg. The other option is to do a hard hit, send the COM flying over the long leg. I think why most think it's easier the other way, it's because it's more comfortable mentally, since it's like running, walking etc.

Affords the most control and the most options. Extend to release will disconnect you from the snow and you cannot re-engage the skis until the hips fall down enough. Imagine you ski 3d snow and you mistimed an apex or just saw some weird terrain coming up on your line. If your default and the only option is extending, you have very few options to change the line as needed. With flexion, you can end the turn when needed, transition as needed (with full edge control) and re-engage as needed. You can pressure the edges at any time between flat or 0 to 90 degrees edge angle, you don't have to wait for the hips to come back within pressure range for the edging angle since they're there already!!

If you see anyone ski bumps or 3d snow with fluidity, that's all it is: full command of flexion and absorption and edge control, to alter line at will. Those small adjustments make the difference between a jackass jamming every bottom and a fluid skier, those guys we all admire.

What I do now is, when I ski 3D snow and something weird shows up, I simply drop even deeper as soon as possible, because that gives me the most options. I can extend fully and hop over the thing or not. I can flip the edges and dig hard bending the ski at will, or not. I can do everything. If I was stuck unable to "drop" and my only move was extending up, I would be screwed, because your only option is well, up. And when you come "down" well, you come down and apply pressure. There is no way around it, because, you know: gravity! With flexion, gravity is your friend.

Floating is the technical concept. You can't get floating with extension, because you're either connected to the snow on a long let (so bounced around) or disconnected when the hips are high.

And a lot more biomechanical issues (you can't tip the feet with a long leg etc)... but I typed a lot today...

But I normally find this question funny, because this is the kind of images you will see from great skiers:


ski-2033184_1280.jpeg


action-adventure-cold-298002-crop.jpg


etc... you'll never see an extender" in 3D snow looking good... they may think they are, but they're not.

So forget all that technical groomer mambo jambo and try to comprehend this: if you can't flex to release, you won't ski well all mountain, ever. Period. And you'll never be a good... let alone a great skier, ever. Period.

Once you get it and can do it without effort... why go back to extending, unless you really need to?

The problem is that it's not easy to get. There is a certain order of things and very few can coach it - as we can see: many are not even aware they are doing it naturally, they've learned it as a side-effect, thus they cannot control it and/or do it "at will", because they're not aware of it... they either "have it" or they don't... I learned it logically and specifically, so I am totally aware logically about my tactical options and can choose the response.

This is also my big gripe with the way it's "taught" by not teaching it. The reason a lot of otherwise great FIS racers struggle skiing bumps and all-mountain as a great skier is because they never learned to flex as a thing, so they can't do it at will. They learned it subconciously. as a reaction to a gate or a line or a rut, some external cue which will trigger it, like @Skitechniek proved in the other thread. But since they don't "own it" they will struggle to use it in other environments they're not accustomed to, like bumps etc (although a lot of them grew up in bumps, but those are their own external cues). It's almost like the coaching establishment created coaching strategies, to promptly forget all about it and just coach course after course!

By nature of being an engineer, I'm cursed to remember all the coaching courses I took and all that stuff they taught us about internal and external cues, questioning, guided discovery, decision training... but oddly, there's very few out there that actually use it effectively, to create great skiers. They generally just create good machines that react to gates being in the way...

It's a longer "hard skills" vs "soft skills" discussion if you want to go there... but this is also a reason why racer's skiing is often poo-poed on "for lack of variety" and in a way, for good reason...
 
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oldschoolskier

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@razie look up some of Franz Klammers videos skiing currently to disprove that Racers don’t ski all mountain well. It might be a North American thing but definitely not European.

Biggest difference in how Europeans learn to race is to play (as they grow up) then learn to race, most schools here learn to race from the get gowell before they’ve learned to play.

A friend pointed out Quebec skiers are better overall because they played first (like the Europeans).

Your assessment of how things work though is spot on, and personally I think how things are phrased from a descriptive teaching stand point as a “flavor of the month” type thing as physics is physics and this doesn’t really change.
 

Mike-AT

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Thanks @Rod9301 for addressing the topic. To me this whole x to release thing is very obscure, if not mythical:

When I learned to ski (in Austria) it was (and still is) 100 % extend to release. I remember very well my dad always told me about the advanced "Tiefentlasten" (which would equal to flex-to-release I'd say), but could never explain/show me the concept well enough for me to implement it.

Only few years ago by following HH's videos it slowly clicked and I'm now able to apply it on groomed runs (don't dare to say I master it). It feels btw most natural to me on bumps/bumped up soft snow on the groomers, where you just absorb the bump and use the reduced pressure on the skis to change edges.

Still when you watch most off-piste videos, the instructors talk about getting BIG/up, so extend to release. Two weeks ago I had a tech training with the Alpenverein (alpine sports community), and again the instructor almost pressed us to extend in the transition (he even said you do this in moguls...).

Also in some Projected films/clips there is some talk about it. Richie Berger talks about it is depending on the situation and surely he also teaches skiing with extension to clients. I believe Andreas Spettel uses extension to release in some of his (off piste) turns. Lastly I would also say that Tom Gellie uses extension (rather forward than up, but still) in his recent moguls lesson, combined with bringing the heels/tails to the bum to swing around the tails.

So all in all pretty confusing to me when it makes most sense to use either way to release. But I guess that this is just the key to mastery, so to know/feel when you use which method best.

@razie
Biggest difference in how Europeans learn to race is to play (as they grow up) then learn to race, most schools here learn to race from the get gowell before they’ve learned to play.

A friend pointed out Quebec skiers are better overall because they played first (like the Europeans).

I recently listed to a Podcast with Marcus Caston, and he talked exactly about this problem (for the "future" US team). Have a high level of fun = lots of kids attend camps/love the sport = a large base to draw talent from. But this deserves a separate thread :)
 

no edge

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As a kid I was taught to up un-weight. Down un-weight is better because it seems to allow for a longer delivery. It can be quicker while saving some for the rest of the turn. Control over the application of pressure is greater.

I don't know that much about it, other than experience. First time I became aware of it was at Snowbasin skiing with EpicSki and 4ster. I thought he was doing it wrong but I tried it and gradually changed.

My explanation is probably feeble because I learn by mimic. This was a breakthrough... I think.
 

jimtransition

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A few reasons come to mind...

It is the most efficient: your body has momentum down the slope and all you do is remove what's between the body and the down the slope direction, at the end of the turn: the outside leg. The other option is to do a hard hit, send the COM flying over the long leg. I think why most think it's easier the other way, it's because it's more comfortable mentally, since it's like running, walking etc.

Affords the most control and the most options. Extend to release will disconnect you from the snow and you cannot re-engage the skis until the hips fall down enough. Imagine you ski 3d snow and you mistimed an apex or just saw some weird terrain coming up on your line. If your default and the only option is extending, you have very few options to change the line as needed. With flexion, you can end the turn when needed, transition as needed (with full edge control) and re-engage as needed. You can pressure the edges at any time between flat or 0 to 90 degrees edge angle, you don't have to wait for the hips to come back within pressure range for the edging angle since they're there already!!

If you see anyone ski bumps or 3d snow with fluidity, that's all it is: full command of flexion and absorption and edge control, to alter line at will. Those small adjustments make the difference between a jackass jamming every bottom and a fluid skier, those guys we all admire.

What I do now is, when I ski 3D snow and something weird shows up, I simply drop even deeper as soon as possible, because that gives me the most options. I can extend fully and hop over the thing or not. I can flip the edges and dig hard bending the ski at will, or not. I can do everything. If I was stuck unable to "drop" and my only move was extending up, I would be screwed, because your only option is well, up. And when you come "down" well, you come down and apply pressure. There is no way around it, because, you know: gravity! With flexion, gravity is your friend.

Floating is the technical concept. You can't get floating with extension, because you're either connected to the snow on a long let (so bounced around) or disconnected when the hips are high.

And a lot more biomechanical issues (you can't tip the feet with a long leg etc)... but I typed a lot today...

But I normally find this question funny, because this is the kind of images you will see from great skiers:


ski-2033184_1280.jpeg

That's a telemarker, so yes, excellent at flexing ;)
 

jimtransition

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Some reasons why I think a flexed release is particularly appropriate for a SL or short turn

Faster edge to edge
Hips travel a shorter distance
Ability to absorb pressure
Greater flexion allows greater lateral range of movement

It's one way to transition, not the only, but without it you're going to suffer in a SL course (or mogul course for that matter).

I like these brush turns from HK
 

John J

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FWIW...Extension transitions or cross over transitions are primarily when the inside leg is extended and the COM rises and crosses over the BOS in a pendulum fashion. The key here is that the COM rises. This can be a very relaxing, upright way to ski. You wouldn't necessarily want to utilize this method in a performance situation.

Flex to release or cross through transition... the COM travels a straight line across the base of support without rising. Allows for quicker transitions or foot to foot skiing. A potential pitfall is becoming chronically aft because the COM is behind the BOS at the transition, depending on how deeply the skier is flexed. The secret is to immediately extend the outside leg at the transition. This will lead to early fore balance with very little effort. Keep in mind you will still need to create separation to allow for angulation and grip on the snow. You will rocket through the arc and generate speed.

Cross under transition is where the COM travels straight down the fall line while the feet or BOS crosses back and forth under the stable COM. Knee anglulation is the key to performing this type of transition. This is still foot to foot skiing. Particularly useful in slalom situations.

I guess a person can ski how ever they want to and in whatever manner makes them happy. I just figured I share my understanding of what the differences are.
 

Erik Timmerman

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As a kid I was taught to up un-weight. Down un-weight is better because it seems to allow for a longer delivery. It can be quicker while saving some for the rest of the turn. Control over the application of pressure is greater.

Don't confuse down-unweight with flex to release. The difference is DIRT, as you said, you can give a longer delivery. You can control delivery of pressure. Those are both DIRT and they distinguish what you are talking about from a down-unweight. Of course you can control the DIRT of an extension too. It's just that you might be used to extending as an up-unweight, and it might take some doing to slow that down.
 

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