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BillA

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Touché! However, Bob is too nice and welcomes discussions and challenges to his statements.

Maybe Bob will drop by and offer his take on defining terminology.

The digital format for the Encyclopedia of Skiing exists on another forum but it might be a little awkward quoting from that site. Would be nice if it was available here.
 

Rudi Riet

AKA songfta AKA randomduck - a USSS coach, as well
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I think you'll see a lot of standardization of terminology within teaching circles - both recreational and racing - now that USSA and PSIA are working together.

Was at a USSA coaches clinic today, taught by one of the regional development directors from USSA. One of the things that USSA has been pushing a lot over the past 6-or-so seasons is SkillQuest, which is a set of exercises used to build a standard basic set of skills that are applicable to high-performance skiing. The whole SkillsQuest exercise set is based on four overarching concepts, which were explained thusly in today's clinic:

Balance - lateral, fore/aft, stance
Edging - tipping/rolling the ski up onto edge, lower body motions, inclination
Pressure - including pressure control movements
Rotary - arcing, steering, re-directing the skis

Note that this is very broad and, yes, can be a bit "insider baseball" terminology. But it's terms that are peppered throughout USSA teaching guides. It's good to know the basic concepts covered by the terms, if only to be able to communicate with other coaches and racers (e.g. at regional camps when many teams and coaches often mix-and-match, or at summer camps).

Great food for thought, @Tricia!
 
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TS
Tricia

Tricia

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Maybe Bob will drop by and offer his take on defining terminology.

The digital format for the Encyclopedia of Skiing exists on another forum but it might be a little awkward quoting from that site. Would be nice if it was available here.
We've actually talk to Bob about that. Stay tuned for Bob's The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing
 

Warp Daddy

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The general problem with language in general is that it is ARBITRARY in nature and based on abstraction. The field of General Semantics covers this notion in wonderful detail and the fampus tome "Science and Sanity " a seminal work in the fiield is enlightening .

The origen of any word is an arbitrary assignment of meaning based on varoius level of abstraction . In the extreme truth is not truth and facts are not not fact but rather arbitrary assignments of value based on assumption that ALL understand ....THUS one must continually SEEK to define terminolgy to do less is a verbal coccoon
 

Read Blinn

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The origen of any word is an arbitrary assignment of meaning based on varoius level of abstraction . In the extreme truth is not truth and facts are not not fact but rather arbitrary assignments of value based on assumption that ALL understand ....THUS one must continually SEEK to define terminolgy to do less is a verbal coccoon

Gosh, talk to Wittgenstein about that. Definition ad infinitum. It's a wonder we communicate at all.
 

Monique

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Gosh, talk to Wittgenstein about that. Definition ad infinitum. It's a wonder we communicate at all.

Yes, when I saw this thread, my first thought was Wittgenstein :) Nerds, all of us.
 
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Tricia

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On the topic of Terminology,
The platform for this site used terminology like "messages" for posts and "conversations" for private messages.
Our amazing guy behind the scenes realized that we may be accustomed to Posts and Private Messages and has changed that terminology on this site. :beercheer:
 

HeluvaSkier

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Shouldn't the message and vocabulary be tailored to the audience... like some when talking with some I can use technical terms, sensations and movement descriptions... with others I have to write things in crayon.
 

LiquidFeet

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I believe Bob Barnes has a book that might be useful. If it was in digital format you could just copy and paste.
You cannot copy and paste anything from Bob Barnes' Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing, because when you do it looks like this:


Abstem $QDEVWHPLVVLPSO\DGRZQVWHP¦DVOLSSLQJRUEUXVKLQJRXW RIWKHWDLORIWKHGRZQKLOOVNL:KLOHDQ\GRZQVWHPFRXOGEHFDOOHGDQDE
VWHPVRPHSHRSOHXVHWKHWHUPVSHFLILFDOO\WRGHVFULEHDQXQLQWHQWLRQDOWDLO ZDVKRXWDWWKHHQGRIDWXUQRIWHQGXHWRH[FHVVLYHIRUZDUGSUHVVXUHRQ WKHVNLVXSSHUERG\URWDWLRQRU§RYHULQLWLDWLRQ ̈RIWKHWXUQ
 

LiquidFeet

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Here's where I'm coming from on this issue of terminology.

I post in technical threads. Not as much as the dominators, but I go there every day, stay there for most of my time on a forum, and when I post I take my time and choose my words carefully. I spend too much time reading this stuff, really, but it's in my blood now. With all this time over the years spent reading technical threads, I have gotten to watch the bloodbaths as those "discussions" turn into train wrecks, which they sometimes do. But not always. On some forums, those train wrecks simply don't happen.

I've put some thought into the differences between sites where arguments get heated, and where they don't.
--On sites where there aren't many people who want to talk about technical issues, a few contribute when that kind of topic comes up, and a few ask questions back and forth, and a few tell stories, and that's about it. The thread ends. Done.
--On sites where a single very experienced authority on technical skiing has a strong presence (ownership), people defer to that person's posting content. Disagreements among the regular posters happen but stay civil because eventually the authority steps in and offers an overview that settles things. People who post choose to take part because they respect the authority of that major player. That's why they are reading those technical threads.
--On the site where I have spent most of my time, there are a number of folks who consider themselves authorities. And since skiing is complicated they do not agree on everything. Their discussions can be civil and very enlightening, with people choosing to disagree after working out where their common ground is and and after finding out where their fundamental disagreements lie. This happens only if the language is very precise and agreed upon. Often, the terms are fuzzy and being used differently in different posts. Then the conversation gets bogged down in what-do-you-mean-and-are-we-saying-the-same-thing-or-not talk, which can go on forever and clog up the discussion for pages and pages. That's why clearly defined terminology is important. It helps people avoid getting deflected into unending what-do-you-mean stuff, to find common ground, and to agree to disagree.

--But train wrecks can and do happen in those technical discussions for another reason, not related so much to shifting definitions of terms. Those wrecks have to do with personality. There are some people who believe their purpose is to convert others to their way of seeing things. They enter these discussions to promote their viewpoint, and want to be the last one standing when all is over and done. So they continue to describe their points until everyone else gets tired and leaves, or (worse) personally attack those who continue to disagree with them. The lack of clear term definitions does contribute to the soup of conflict that these people love to swim in, but it's not the cause of the ugliness. Moderation is necessary.

So I'm all for getting a glossary up and going, and for some moderator to post definitions inside the technical talks as they are needed. The people posting can be "invited" to use the definitions; a hammer is not necessary nor pleasant. They might choose to discuss those definitions, and the thread will continue along those lines. Or they might choose, for the length of the discussion, to use that definition to tease out their common ground and find their fundamental differences on the original topic. And then agree to disagree.
 
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fatbob

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Just a FWIW but lots of technical discussion seems to start heading into the bog when people don't even align on inside/outside ski or uphill/downhill ski because it changes throughout the turn. Is it so hard to frame the discussion round a defined direction of turn being left hand or right hand? People then usually have no problem understanding what their right and left ski are.

I'm a great fan of keeping stuff really simple - I realise gurus make their money from having distilling things into frameworks but there also seems a lot of needless complication when things are translated into the written word - guess all I'm saying is that when it comes to sports show is immensely more powerful than tell.
 

fatbob

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You cannot copy and paste anything from Bob Barnes' Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing, because when you do it looks like this:


Abstem $QDEVWHPLVVLPSO\DGRZQVWHP¦DVOLSSLQJRUEUXVKLQJRXW RIWKHWDLORIWKHGRZQKLOOVNL:KLOHDQ\GRZQVWHPFRXOGEHFDOOHGDQDE
VWHPVRPHSHRSOHXVHWKHWHUPVSHFLILFDOO\WRGHVFULEHDQXQLQWHQWLRQDOWDLO ZDVKRXWDWWKHHQGRIDWXUQRIWHQGXHWRH[FHVVLYHIRUZDUGSUHVVXUHRQ WKHVNLVXSSHUERG\URWDWLRQRU§RYHULQLWLDWLRQ ̈RIWKHWXUQ

Bob Barnes Facts

Bob actually writes in an ancient and mysterious tongue which is only revealed to the reader when Bob deems him/her worthy.
 

Chris Geib

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Bob Barnes Facts

Bob actually writes in an ancient and mysterious tongue which is only revealed to the reader when Bob deems him/her worthy.
You cannot copy and paste anything from Bob Barnes' Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing, because when you do it looks like this:


Abstem $QDEVWHPLVVLPSO\DGRZQVWHP¦DVOLSSLQJRUEUXVKLQJRXW RIWKHWDLORIWKHGRZQKLOOVNL:KLOHDQ\GRZQVWHPFRXOGEHFDOOHGDQDE
VWHPVRPHSHRSOHXVHWKHWHUPVSHFLILFDOO\WRGHVFULEHDQXQLQWHQWLRQDOWDLO ZDVKRXWDWWKHHQGRIDWXUQRIWHQGXHWRH[FHVVLYHIRUZDUGSUHVVXUHRQ WKHVNLVXSSHUERG\URWDWLRQRU§RYHULQLWLDWLRQ ̈RIWKHWXUQ

I suspect he just wants you to re-write it each time so you are more likely to remember it!

Or maybe it is a copyright thing????
 

mdf

entering the Big Couloir
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Yes, when I saw this thread, my first thought was Wittgenstein :) Nerds, all of us.

Well, yes, but Wittgenstein is relevant here. "The meaning of a word is its use in the language."
You can't define words without using other words.

Contentious words like "counter" cause problems because different schools embed them in different frameworks-- different languages -- so they only appear to be the same word.

Or perhaps its not that complicated:
“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’"
 

WTFH

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Terminology matters:
1. If you are trying to argue a theortical point - big words win
2. If you have bought into marketing - buzz words win
3. If you explain your terminology by saying what it is not, you're not explaining it.
4. If you are trying to encourage others, then explanations win. If you can't explain the word you use in simple terms, then don't use it.

e.g. Question: What colour is the sky? Answer given "Azure"
What do you mean by "Azure"
1. 500 nanometer wavelength
2. It's Azure. Like dark cyan only better.
3. It's not red. Red is wrong. Anyone who likes red is wrong. Red is stupid. It's also not Yellow. Don't get me started on Yellow.
4. It's blue. Blue like a lagoon, blue like a bottle of Bombay Sapphire, blue like the lock screen in Windows 7.
 

LiquidFeet

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Don't get me started on "azure."
Nice description. You left out metaphors. Metaphors are great explanations, if you can see the response of your audience.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
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Well, yes, but Wittgenstein is relevant here. "The meaning of a word is its use in the language."

Wittgenstein is always relevant when the topic of communication is involved.
 

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