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Tricia

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Extension & flexion, absorption, retraction, crossover, edge change, rotary, pivot...


When I'm talking to friends about ski technique, I hear a lot of these terms, some of which seem to be the same but different.
Lets talk about why terminology matters and when to use one term instead of another.
 

SkiNurse

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Extension & flexion, absorption, retraction, crossover, edge change, rotary, pivot...


When I'm talking to friends about ski technique, I hear a lot of these terms, some of which seem to be the same but different.
Lets talk about why terminology matters and when to use one term instead of another.

I encounter this professionally all the time. Medical speak vs lay person speak....and many versions in between. Using any type of terminology is about knowing your audience.
 
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Tricia

Tricia

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I encounter this professionally all the time. Medical speak vs lay person speak....and many versions in between. Using any type of terminology is about knowing your audience.
I encountered this even in the plumbing business. I would refer to a fixtures that had a "plumber's ease" term and the warehouse had no idea what i was talking about.
 

Sinecure

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Well, it allows us "in the know" to talk with one another and more-or-less know what we're referring to. Plus, it makes it sound really complicated so punters feel like they're paying us for something worthwhile.
 

Living Proof

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Ski teaching terminology always reminds me of the biblical story of the "leaning tower of Babel" built by people speaking different languages. As many here are aware, I am a follower of a ski system where the developer of the system is extremely protective of his specific dictionary of terms, and, there is no wiggle room to modify the terminology. That's great for those who follow him, and, a great source of confusion/misinformation for those who have not studied his work.

Good luck to anyone trying to achieve a similar standard dictionary acceptance.
 
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Tricia

Tricia

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Well, it allows us "in the know" to talk with one another and more-or-less know what we're referring to. Plus, it makes it sound really complicated so punters feel like they're paying us for something worthwhile.
While I was creating this thread, I actually dug out my copy of @Bob Barnes The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing. There are terms in there that I never imagined, most of which make perfect sense to me the minute I read them.
 

DeAnn Sloan

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I really think it's a matter of precision. For those in the industry or serious about skiing/advancing their skiing, it allows us/them to have a common language so that we know that to which we're referring.

Thinking about what @SkiNurse said about medical language, I can say to my husband, "I hurt my knee." When talking to my physical therapist or orthopedic surgeon, I probably want to be more precise. Granted, the MRI is most telling, but while describing an injury, it's more useful to say that I am experiencing medial subluxation in my left knee (but that's a personal problem). In skiing, some terms may mean little to nothing to a novice, but at a higher level, saying "bend your knees" doesn't really cut it. There are so many small adjustments people can make to improve, and making those adjustments sometimes requires a common and precise language.
 

Monique

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All language comes down to communication. If the two people involved in the conversation are both building the same picture in their heads, that's effective communication. Technical language gives people who know it a more efficient way to communicate. So two experienced instructors might communicate in two sentences a concept it takes them a full day lesson to communicate to students.

Of course, it would be nice if technical language meant the same thing to all people - as I recall, CSIA and PSIA have very different definitions of "rotation."
 

LiquidFeet

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All language comes down to communication. If the two people involved in the conversation are both building the same picture in their heads, that's effective communication. Technical language gives people who know it a more efficient way to communicate. So two experienced instructors might communicate in two sentences a concept it takes them a full day lesson to communicate to students.

Of course, it would be nice if technical language meant the same thing to all people - as I recall, CSIA and PSIA have very different definitions of "rotation."

This. A glossary on this site, readily available to anyone reading or posting in technical discussions, would help reduce the endless arguments that revolve around differing uses of terms. I don't think one can eliminate all technical arguments because people genuinely do disagree about how to ski, and there will always be personalities that want to convince others that their way is best. But something can be done about the differing uses of terms.

It would sure be helpful if folks could move past the definition-of-terms confusion. Maybe a moderator watching over the technical threads could step in and post a quoted definition from the glossary at just the right moment in a thread's development, when people are working to figure out what each other are meaning (and disagreeing because they aren't using the terms the same way). If those people posting agreed to go with that definition (a big IF), the discussion could move onward to technique instead of the endless circles over what people are actually talking about. Maybe.
 

Monique

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This. A glossary on this site, readily available to anyone reading or posting in technical discussions, would help reduce the endless arguments that revolve around differing uses of terms. I don't think one can eliminate all technical arguments because people genuinely do disagree about how to ski, and there will always be personalities that want to convince others that their way is best. But something can be done about the differing uses of terms.

Perhaps it will help in some cases, but words are such a poor way to define ski concepts ...
 

bbinder

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It would sure be helpful if folks could move past the definition-of-terms confusion. Maybe a moderator watching over the technical threads could step in and post a quoted definition from the glossary at just the right moment in a thread's development said:
A good point. It seems that when I speak with different instructors, I get different explanations for what a term means or how it translates into motion. This gets confusing, to say the least... One could make the argument that this is the fault of the different teaching systems around the world, or the fault of how ski schools implement these systems, or how individual instructors translate these implementations -- in my mind it doesn't really matter where the blame lies, but rather that the confusion exists. To this day, I am not entirely sure what steering is or what rotation really refers to! Compare this to Skinurse's comment about medical terminology and Dsloan's use of it: I know EXACTLY what a medial subluxation of the knee refers to! And I hate to say it, but when anybody following Living Proof's mentor throws out a term, you also know how that term translates into motion (unfortunately, because the terminology is pounded at you, with derision and ridicule if you use a term incorrectly).
 

bbinder

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In other words, a standard set of terms that we use to discuss things would make things a lot less confusing and easier for the lay person to understand. We can call it "The Pugski Terminology".
 

T-Square

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What we are really discussing is a shared language. All that means is that a group of people agree that a word has a specific meaning. When we say "purple" the English speaking world knows what that means. Its a shorthand. You could use and other description for "purple" such as "A deep, rich shade between crimson and violet or, more broadly, as a range of hues of color between blue and red or a dark color that is a blend of red and blue." However, its much easier to say purple.

All professions have their own set of shorthand words that are used. Some words have different meanings to different professions. Transit to an engineer is a piece of equipment for measuring angles in the field. For an astronomer it is when one celestial body appears to move across the face of another as in the transit of Venus across the sun.

Ski instructors have their own language and definitions of words. This is shorthand to allow us to speak quickly with others who understand the language. Thank you Bob for putting together the "Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing." It puts it all in one easy to access place.

Now problems occur when you have professionals using the same words but they have been brought up in a different system (PSIA, CSIA, and others). Sort of like the subtle differences between the King's English and what us colonials speak. You can get in big trouble with something as innocuous as a Brit saying "Would you like me to knock you up in the morning?"

As a professional I want to know the definition of words so I can understand and talk with other professionals. However, Kneale has it dead on. Teach without using the technical jargon. Your client will understand better. After all we are after fun, understanding, and learning.
 
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BillA

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I believe Bob Barnes has a book that might be useful. If it was in digital format you could just copy and paste.
 
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Tricia

Tricia

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You mean, "Pugspeak"?
Woof
In the past we've referred to Weem-isms and Bob-isms on a regular basis.

I believe Bob Barnes has a book that might be useful. If it was in digital format you could just copy and paste.
I actually used Bob's The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing when I was looking for a few terms recently which is why I started this thread.
 

bbinder

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I believe Bob Barnes has a book that might be useful. If it was in digital format you could just copy and paste.

Touché! However, Bob is too nice and welcomes discussions and challenges to his statements.
 

Read Blinn

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I heard an interview once with a movie maker who'd written a novel. He said the difference between a novel and a movie was description. Consider a scene in which a man comes out of a house, crosses a street, and gets into a car. In the movie, the man comes out of a specific house (town house? detached? in good repair? run down? brown? white?), crosses a specific street (narrow? dark? open to the sky? residential? with shops? with shops with bars on the window?) and gets into a car (Ford? Ferrari? beat-up Yugo?) — each detail is specific and completely controlled by the director. In a novel, the house, no matter how specifically described, is created in the mind of the reader, the same for the street and the car. There are as many specific houses, streets, and cars as there are readers of the novel. And no matter how prolix, the novelist can't describe a scene as specifically as the director can (each glint, dent, and patch of rust on the Yugo).

So words used to describe physical sensations or movements must fall short in a teaching situation. What is get forward? What does that mean? Once a student has felt what it means, the term becomes clear — felt meaning the feel of foot and leg in the boot, the position of the body in relation to gravity, the pressure that is felt in turns and where it is felt, the relationship of the shoulders to the boots, to the hips, to the legs. (And all that language is more or less useless as well. :D)

I know that no language did what the sensation of forwardness did. After I felt the sensation, I could say "get forward" with a lot of authority (and not much effectiveness).
 

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