Why are too many parking lots unpaved and often a mess because of it?

[Mike Thomas]

Ice rugs to the base? Have you ever been on one of those moving walkways in an airport? Or on an escalator? The concept is just fine... until you add people to the equation. All it would take is one kid struggling with gear and motivation and you've produced a roadblock. Now what?

 

[crgildart]

Aren't there places out in CA with possibly Utah with paved lots and big wagons for tourists to haul their luggage (AKA Gear) in from the parking lot to the base lodge?

 

[Goose]

It has been mentioned, but it keeps getting ignored--how bad paving is for the environment in these mountain areas. Do you know what runoff from parking lots where cars have dripped oil/other fluids does to a stream? It kills fish, for one. Given that so many western resorts are on Forest Service land, this is a non-starter.

I was trying to remember if I have ever seen a paved lot, outside of say, the Vail garage (doesn't that fund their free transit system?). I can think of a couple tiny, very expensive patches of asphalt, I think, at a couple places, like Sun Valley. I don't think there is such an animal here in WA. But since they are usually covered in snow/ice I guess there could be something I missed.

I don't think environmental impact is intentionally being ignored. But just that different things are being discussed. But yea I can see your point about that.
That said if we want to get moire into that and I wouldn't disagree but there are other things to consider with an unpaved lot just the same imo......

......as for oil and fluid drippings? That stuff going directly into the ground via an unpaved lot is not really any different and can have the same affect as well as contaminate the ground under the gravel lot. The rains and also water from melting snows then carries that through the ground and can spread just about anywhere the water takes it which could be a stream too not too mention feeding the roots of surrounding vegetation, trees, etc. . And also I think alot of the almost often black in appearance color of the mud itself is contaminated fluid mixed which gets on your boots, tracked indoors, in your car, etc....there is no getting away from that imo either way and is an ugly evil of the situation regardless which way its done.
Then we have the dry days when the huge dust cloud in and surrounding the lot gets all over everything as vehicles kick it all up all day long. Id be certain much the dry flying dust cloud is the same contaminated dirt particles. Not just us humans breathing it in, but also any animals nearby as well, And it also settling on all plant life leaves and such in and surrounding the whole area. Not only animals then eating the vegetation, berries, etc, whatever have you but then washing off the plants (via precipitation) and into the ground contaminating that and possibly the same stream once again.
I not trying to be sarcastic here but only in the sense if one wants to consider the environmental impact we have to look at it from "all angles". The amount of dirty cloud flying around is not a little but is huge. The air is filled with it. Just look at a clean car you pulled in with and what it looks like after you leave. I mean that is in the air and it is a whole lot and is going to do all the things I mentioned. And imo a lot of that dry dirt thrown up in the air would be the same contaminated soils from the fluid drippings in the lot.
So I honestly don't know if the affect of paved runoff is any more evil to the environment than the affect of all the things associated with unpaved mentioned in above paragraphs.. The ground, the air, and just about everything surrounding it all. Seems like lose/lose either way as there is no way around it regardless.

 

[Uncle Louie]

"And then there are those rubber boot bottom protectors like Cat Tracks, a product over decades. I bought some decades ago but what the hey does one do with them when reaching a lift area? Put the dirty grubby bulky things in a coat pocket?

I am interrupting this thread with a very important Public Service Announcement.

There is a resealable plastic lunch bag in each front pocket of all of my ski jackets. Cat Tracks go in the bag. Bags go in the two front pockets. The mud stays in the bags. I go skiing. Works equally well with you back pack folks.

 

[scott43]

So I honestly don't know if the affect of paved runoff is any more evil to the environment than the affect of all the things associated with unpaved mentioned in above paragraphs.. The ground, the air, and just about everything surrounding it all. Seems like lose/lose either way as there is no way around it regardless.

Not to mention that a paved parking lot is one giant hydrocarbon mess...a large portion of that lot is oil and oil byproduct. And that erodes and leaches into the groundwater. Neither is great..gravel is better arguably and cheaper..discounting the dirty boot and car problem.

 

[Goose]

Not to mention that a paved parking lot is one giant hydrocarbon mess...a large portion of that lot is oil and oil byproduct. And that erodes and leaches into the groundwater. Neither is great..gravel is better arguably and cheaper..discounting the dirty boot and car problem.

Yea I agree the pavement itself would contain oils. But when speaking terms of runoff of fluids the other way also has its faults is what I was pointing out.

 

[newboots]

It is illuminating to learn how different practices are in different ski areas, and different geographic areas. Having once had the experience of carting my gear to a bus and trying to find a seat with a boot bag on my back, I can see how one would go to great lengths to avoid this!

As far as $25, $30, or !$40! parking . . . all I can say is, you'll find me carrying my boot bag across the gravel/mud lots in New England, happily.

 

[SSSdave]

I am interrupting this thread with a very important Public Service Announcement.
There is a resealable plastic lunch bag in each front pocket of all of my ski jackets. Cat Tracks go in the bag. Bags go in the two front pockets. The mud stays in the bags. I go skiing. Works equally well with you back pack folks.

I can understand how stuffing them into pockets for some may not be annoying. However for this person as I noted Cat Tracks are bulky. Sure one can put them into a plastic bag. Anyone with common sense will do that because as noted they are grubby dirty. No the issue is as related they are bulky. That is why I stopped carrying them decades ago. Already have too much in my pockets with each added bulky thing as a bump skier reducing flexibility and movement. (car keys, house keys, fat wallet, Epic pass, moto g (smartphone), comb, whistle, trailmap, tissue packet, tiny MP3 player, + x y and z)

 

[Chris Walker]

Chris Walker, >>>"...Regarding boot wear, I'm surprised everyone doesn't use Cat Tracks or similar whenever walking a non-negligible distance on a surface more abrasive than snow."

What I wrote in post #13 page 1:
"And then there are those rubber boot bottom protectors like Cat Tracks, a product over decades. I bought some decades ago but what the hey does one do with them when reaching a lift area? Put the dirty grubby bulky things in a coat pocket? No way Jay! Also no one is going to secure those up with a ski lock and if it just laying atop snow under a metal ski rack will you still have it after a week of skiing each day leaving it there?"

Boot up in the lodge? Really not practical at many resorts except for locals, employees with lockers. Who wants to pay for a locker each time skiing? And the hassle of walking wherever one is parked all the way to some lodge and then all the way to a lift and then do the same at day's end. Many of we frequent skiing season pass holders just want to park as close to a lift as possible and walk right to a lift to start skiing then at day's end quickly ski as close as possible back to our vehicles or whatever shuttle to get there. Also at many lodges one cannot just lay clothing and gear about inside lodges. Read what I wrote about ice rugs to lift areas.

I have, at various times, (yes, really) left them locked to the ski rack, put them in my pockets with and without ziplock bags (I'm personally not real picky how clean the inside of my pockets are, the ziplocs weren't much hassle but I stopped bothering after a while) and even on many occasions, believe it or not, just lain them over the bottom bar of a ski rack with no security whatsoever. So far I still have mine.

I go through phases where I'll alternate booting up at the car with cat tracks and booting up at the locker room and stashing my shoes on top of a locker. Some places I frequent even provide little cubbies for storing shoes. I'm not paying $6/day for a locker to prevent the theft of my $15 shoes. If I do carry my boots in I just join the velcro straps of my boots together to form a shoulder strap and sling the boots over my shoulder. It's generally not been a problem for me on shuttles or other transportation to the base. I'm undecided on the marginal utility of ease of walking vs. extra stop between car and lift, which is why I go back and forth.

 

[crgildart]

I can understand how stuffing them into pockets for some may not be annoying. However for this person as I noted Cat Tracks are bulky. Sure one can put them into a plastic bag. Anyone with common sense will do that because as noted they are grubby dirty. No the issue is as related they are bulky. That is why I stopped carrying them decades ago. Already have too much in my pockets with each added bulky thing as a bump skier reducing flexibility and movement. (car keys, house keys, fat wallet, Epic pass, moto g (smartphone), comb, whistle, trailmap, tissue packet, tiny MP3 player, + x y and z)

My YakTrax ski boot sole covers hang on my cable lock on the railing down at the base lodge all day. Leave them there all day. Grab them and put them back on the boots on the way back to the car..

 

[Monique]

Put the dirty grubby bulky things in a coat pocket? No way Jay! Also no one is going to secure those up with a ski lock and if it just laying atop snow under a metal ski rack will you still have it after a week of skiing each day leaving it there?"

I've been putting them in my pockets. They're not dirty, but they're wet, which is unfortunate.

A friend of mine does just hang hers on a ski rack every ski day. If you wanted to lock them, I think a simple cheap padlock would be even better than a ski lock.

I am interrupting this thread with a very important Public Service Announcement.

There is a resealable plastic lunch bag in each front pocket of all of my ski jackets. Cat Tracks go in the bag. Bags go in the two front pockets. The mud stays in the bags. I go skiing. Works equally well with you back pack folks.

OMG. I never thought about this. GAME CHANGER.

 

[wyowindrunner]

1. It's supposed to be frozen.

2. Asphalt isn't great for the environment and increases the rate of runoff into waterbodies rather than natural absorption into the soil. It recharges the local aquifer rather than running downstream.

3. Increasing impervious surface could trigger stormwater review by local or state authorities. In some places increasing the impervious requires storwater management - catch basins, infiltration systems, drainage areas. The idea is to slow down runoff and also remove 80% to 90% of total suspended solids. Usually existing pavement is grandfathered in so it saves money to keep the status quo.

Yes you have said it better than I attempted to. A SWRP is a storm water run off plan. In some states they are reffered to as SWPPP- a storm water pollution prevention plan. In some states depending on the plan, any runoff leaving the site of your plan boundaries is to be sampled at designated locations at least once a quarter. Some states have fairly loose requirements, and some are extremely restrictive (California)

 

[KingGrump]

Aren't there places out in CA with possibly Utah with paved lots and big wagons for tourists to haul their luggage (AKA Gear) in from the parking lot to the base lodge?

Sun Valley.

 

[Pumba]

...story of my life...

 

[at_nyc]

Aren't there places out in CA with possibly Utah with paved lots and big wagons for tourists to haul their luggage (AKA Gear) in from the parking lot to the base lodge?

North Star! And it needs it badly too. The base "village" of NS is a sprawling freaking shopping center! I absolutely hate it! There, the wagon does help.

Sun Valley also has it. But the walk there is short so the benefit isn't half as big. And for whatever people say about how "nice" SV skiers are, one thing they're NOT nice is their habit of monopolizing those gear wagons. You'll see wagons parked outside of the lodge, full of gear, the owner nowhere near. They're probably still ordering their drinks in the lodge. Good luck finding an unused one.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Winter Park has wagons.

 

[jonc]

This thread kinda reminds me of a sign I saw warning that water may drip onto you on the chairlift and it may stain your coat...

This does happen, I hate it when the chairlifts drip and stain my clothes.

Maybe they should offer a drip-free lift for extra $?

 

[crgildart]

Sun Valley also has it. But the walk there is short so the benefit isn't half as big. And for whatever people say about how "nice" SV skiers are, one thing they're NOT nice is their habit of monopolizing those gear wagons. You'll see wagons parked outside of the lodge, full of gear, the owner nowhere near. They're probably still ordering their drinks in the lodge. Good luck finding an unused one.

Same people hog the baggage carts at the hotel and leave them sitting in the lobby full of their crap while they eat the free breakfast. Heck some probably grab them the night before their departure and hide them in their room all night so no one else who gets up earlier can use them.

 

[at_nyc]

Same people hog the baggage carts at the hotel and leave them sitting in the lobby full of their crap while they eat the free breakfast. Heck some probably grab them the night before their departure and hide them in their room all night so no one else who gets up earlier can use them.

Except, that was Sun Valley.

Everyone was gushing about how nice the largely well-heeled clientele of Sun Valley are. They are. But when it comes to hogging gear wagons, that seems to be the exception to the civilized behavior.

 

[Christy]

Sun Valley has that very small paved lot at River Run I think for ADA and valet, but I didn't think the big skier lots were paved. If you take the free bus you get dropped off as close to the base as possible, so that's the way to go.

So I honestly don't know if the affect of paved runoff is any more evil to the environment than the affect of all the things associated with unpaved mentioned in above paragraphs..

Stormwater runoff is something that is studied extensively so if you really wanted to, you could learn about why it's thought paved surfaces are worse than gravel. I don't think anyone is saying there are no negative impacts from gravel lots but in a situation where there is going to be a ski resort on public land, the Forest Service is typically/hopefully going to mitigate the impacts by requiring the least bad option. That last statement is a generalization of course and I'm sure we can all think of sh**ty things the FS allows or times when politics trump science but there is a process under NEPA where hopefully results in better outcomes and alternatives.