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Who uses the spoiler inside their boot cuffs?

VickieH

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I went to the bootfitter because I was having serious toe bang. I had to shorten my ski day and ski less often. I was reaching the point of "not worth it to ski".

The first thing people think when they hear "toe bang" is that the boots are too big. Actually, the liners were slightly short for me. What was really going on was ...
The more forward lean the greater the angles become and the hips move lower and back.

The bootfitter said ... ^^^ and Hips farther back pushes the feet forward in the boots.

Once the forward lean was decreased, the toe bang went away.
 

Chris V.

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[F]ind a position where your knees, ankles and hips are all flexed and you feel like you can compress or extend evenly.

Can we put this forward as a simple statement of the objective of fore-aft alignment? While being somewhere in the middle of the available range of flexion, and in balance over the whole foot? (This implies that for skiers with an average or better range of dorsiflexion, the boot and binding setup should promote a stance featuring a good amount of ankle flexion, balanced with the amounts of knee and hip flexion.)

R. Mark Elling, in The All-Mountain Skier (2d ed.) p. 125, put it as follows: "The skier's neutral stance, the stance unaffected by the loads built in turning, should be tall and the skeletal frame should bear the body's own weight without having to expend much muscular effort." Extremes to avoid are a "very upright...overly tall stance," and "an overly bent, or squatty, stance in the lower body."

For those just signing in, no need to repeat a lot of past discussion. The ongoing gas pedaling thread is at: https://www.pugski.com/threads/gas-pedalling.17091/

Adjustments to the "zeppa angle" of the boot board, and the "delta angle" of the binding system, serve different purposes. At least for skiers with an adequate range of dorsiflexion, the angle of the shin relative to the outside sole of the boot (forward lean) is largely dictated by the design of the boot. Work on the inside of the boot isn't going to alter this. Some boot models used to furnish a means of adjusting forward lean, but I don't see this any more. Which leaves either grinding and shimming the exteriors of the boot soles, or adjustments to the bindings, as the available tools.

Gas pedaling isn't for everyone, any more than lifts under the heel pieces of the bindings are for everyone. That being said, there are many binding systems that come, off the shelf, with greater delta angles than are appropriate for the majority of skiers. Adding heel lifts to bindings, or inside boots, was something of a fad for a while, and for many skiers it was just wrong.
 

Tom K.

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My bootfitter took spoilers out. I am in a Lange RS130. I went to a clinic with Ron LeMaster and he had us do some balancing exercises and suggested I put them back in. However, this seemed to push my knees too far forward. One of my coaches suggested putting some boot material in between the tongue and plastic in the front. This took up some volume and seemed to put me in a better position fore/aft wise.

Hi Nancy. I at least think I was experiencing the same thing that you describe in my RX130s. I just ground away half the spoiler thickness, and it turned out to suit me well.
 

Tricia

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My bootfitter took spoilers out. I am in a Lange RS130. I went to a clinic with Ron LeMaster and he had us do some balancing exercises and suggested I put them back in. However, this seemed to push my knees too far forward. One of my coaches suggested putting some boot material in between the tongue and plastic in the front. This took up some volume and seemed to put me in a better position fore/aft wise.
Quite often, I'll take up room in the front instead of the back when someone has skinny calves.
 

Ski&ride

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Dumb question, what spoiler?

(I looked into my boots, don’t see anything in the back that’s removable. Or do some boots don’t have it?)
 

Tricia

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Dumb question, what spoiler?

(I looked into my boots, don’t see anything in the back that’s removable. Or do some boots don’t have it?)
Sometimes a boot doesn't have one, or sometimes a fitter will avoid using it because it isn't something you need or want in your boot.
 

givethepigeye

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I do - seems to feel better. I don’t push them down too far (they are basically wedges) but RS130 is pretty upright. I’ve taken them out and tried it. Didn’t feel comfortable and I don’t have the patience when it worked just fine with them in
 

crgildart

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I've taken the spoilers out of old boots and added them to new boots that didn't come with them.
 

CalG

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After the fist few hours in Dalbello Lupos, I went to the fitter looking for spoilers.
The boots set me up straight more than I like, and I have skinny lower legs.

The boot guy gave me two styles. One pair thicker than the other pair. I use the thinner ones. The hook and loop fastening didn't cut it, so I sewed them to my boot liner.

This year I'm looking for some padding for the top of the tongue. My shins are already battered and bruised. Ouch!
 

Alexzn

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I am not the right person to give boot advise.. With that disclaimer out of the way I think that spoiler is a bad way to take up volume, this is what the top buckles are for (and you should move them if needed. Spoiler is primarily and only a way to increase your forward lean. Some people need that but I thought that most people do not. I was told to take mine out becuase I have limited range of motion and do not need to reduce it even more by adding to the forward lean. Of course everybody's anatomy ifs different, this is why those things are removable in the first place. Manufacturers are not stupid. If only they would also include a moldable footbed with every boot, or even a decent footbed.
 

moreoutdoorYuri

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so, I'm not clear on the real Question from the OP...
since using 'spoilers' or not, is all "dependenz"...
and since the Q ended with 'comments?" - here goes...
I'll agree with all those posters who have brought up the 'dependenz' factors, with additional which could be mentioned and which should also be factored in.
For me the ultimate goal - question to be answered - is "Am I in a balanced neutral stance when I'm in my boots, on my skis (of which there is some variability...) running on some neutral terrain/slope?"
I would never use 'spoilers' to take up space - i have other ways to take up volume/space for my chicken legs, which won;t affect my stance.
The greater you set yourself outside of 'neutral' stance, the more you overload muscle groups, possibly cause issues often attributed to 'boot fit' AND, most apparently, limit how well you can react to terrain, snow conditions and challenges - often resulting in out-of-control skiing. We all have limits... to skill, strength, flexibility. Start out of balance and you greatly reduce your effective assets, from the outset.
So, whether one uses spoilers or gas pedals or any other stance adjustment is really in the context of their personal morphology, the equipment they have, their balance requirements and their skiing needs.
SO I'll bring up one additional factor to consider - BSL. Given most modern bindings have some positive ramp angle - for any binding ramp angle, a shorter BSL (smaller boot size) will have a greater net ramp angle compared to the same boot in a larger size. For smaller boot sizes the 'apparent' neutral stance feeling on the carpet of a ski shop feels way different from the feeling standing in skis, waiting to load a chair, or standing at the top of a run with an apparent 'lip' entry...
spoilers are a tool in the stance adjustment tookit.
 

James

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Yep, thick Lange foam rubber spoiler in Head B3 boot with the plastic spoiler in. Want more. The Head stick on spoiler was pretty worthless, like the liner tongue. Swapped a Dobermann tongue.

Edit- to increase the damn forward lean. The cuff is alledgedly adjustable, but in practice, not.
 
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Noodler

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so, I'm not clear on the real Question from the OP...
since using 'spoilers' or not, is all "dependenz"...
and since the Q ended with 'comments?" - here goes...
I'll agree with all those posters who have brought up the 'dependenz' factors, with additional which could be mentioned and which should also be factored in.
For me the ultimate goal - question to be answered - is "Am I in a balanced neutral stance when I'm in my boots, on my skis (of which there is some variability...) running on some neutral terrain/slope?"
I would never use 'spoilers' to take up space - i have other ways to take up volume/space for my chicken legs, which won;t affect my stance.
The greater you set yourself outside of 'neutral' stance, the more you overload muscle groups, possibly cause issues often attributed to 'boot fit' AND, most apparently, limit how well you can react to terrain, snow conditions and challenges - often resulting in out-of-control skiing. We all have limits... to skill, strength, flexibility. Start out of balance and you greatly reduce your effective assets, from the outset.
So, whether one uses spoilers or gas pedals or any other stance adjustment is really in the context of their personal morphology, the equipment they have, their balance requirements and their skiing needs.
SO I'll bring up one additional factor to consider - BSL. Given most modern bindings have some positive ramp angle - for any binding ramp angle, a shorter BSL (smaller boot size) will have a greater net ramp angle compared to the same boot in a larger size. For smaller boot sizes the 'apparent' neutral stance feeling on the carpet of a ski shop feels way different from the feeling standing in skis, waiting to load a chair, or standing at the top of a run with an apparent 'lip' entry...
spoilers are a tool in the stance adjustment tookit.

Nice post. :)
 

Philpug

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The question should not be "Who uses the spoiler inside their boot cuffs?" but "Who uses the spoiler inside their boot cuffs, and why?"
 

PNWRod

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I have chicken leg shanks...where do I find spoilers if they didn't come with the boot? My boots were fitted by a boot fitter with inserts and the whole deal a few years back. There is a little space behind my chicken legs that I would like to experiment with removing.
 

Rod9301

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I see a lot of replies that say : use the spoiler to take room inside the boot because of skinny calves.

That's not the way to take out room because the spoiler will change the forward lean angle..

This is the purpose for the spoiler.

To take out room, use foam or similar material on the top of the tongue or on the sides, high up, of the inner boot.
 

EricG

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Dumb question, what spoiler?

(I looked into my boots, don’t see anything in the back that’s removable. Or do some boots don’t have it?)

this is what the spoilers from my new Fischer’s looked like:
DB59A440-A91D-4701-B5A8-2BD3D2303854.jpeg
 
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LiquidFeet

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The question should not be "Who uses the spoiler inside their boot cuffs?" but "Who uses the spoiler inside their boot cuffs, and why?"
Here's the OP, as originally posted:

Just wondering who discards these things as soon as they get the boots home from the shop, and who skis with them stuck to their liners.
Which boot, what's its forward lean, and why do you need it?
Is there some history to the use of these inserts?
Comments?
 
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James

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this is what the spoilers from my new Fischer’s looked like:
View attachment 88895

^ That’s the spoiler that goes on the liner. Some boots have one that screws to the shell also.

If your calf muscle connects lower down, you will have more effective forward lean than someone who’s muscle connects further up.

Telling others what to do having not seen anything doesn’t make much sense.

Whoever wanted a pair, just go to a boot shop and ask. They usually have piles. The Langes are kind of the easiest to sand down if needed. Your liner needs velcro on the back or you figure something out.
 

Henry

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Totally individual. My Dodge boots have 3° of cuff shank angle forward adjustment as well as velco fastened wedge shaped spoilers. I have skinny calves. I found the cuff shank angle that works for me and the spoilers about half-way down is what feels balanced to me.

Don't throw them away and don't insist on them. Try different things. See where YOU feel balanced. That's the right set up for YOU.

If your cuff aligners are on both sides of each boot cuff, you can try things. First, find the side-to-side alignment that suits your legs, the valgus or varus alignment. If you have some room to move the aligners after this, you can move both equally forward or back, not exceeding their max range remaining. This will tilt the cuff forward or upright. The "right" forward or upright alignment is that feels balanced to YOU.
 

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