Who uses the spoiler inside their boot cuffs?

[Josh Matta]

I use mine to mold, then take them out. Again super wide calf even below the muscle.

 

[Scrundy]

Just started messing with them last season. Wanted a little more forward lean, more so on my left boot. After talking to boot fitter he told me to try them out. I wanted to try to use them to lower my left knee and make it more even with the right knee height. I use Velcro so I can move them up or down and found
what works best for me was more forward lean on left then right. Feels more natural now , felt for some time now my left foot was longer than right and by doing this cured that feeling. Also cured when flexing forward in boots my left knee higher than right.

 

[Henry]

It all depends...depends on the individual's morphology, the binding delta, the boot shaft angle, the individual's preference. There is no one right answer.

 

[pliny the elder]

It all depends...depends on the individual's morphology, the binding delta, the boot shaft angle, the individual's preference. There is no one right answer.

We have a winner! Adding the spoiler effectively increases the forward angle of the rear spine. This increases knee flexion and ankle flexion and in turn, hip flexion. Depending on the diameter of your calf at the top of the boot, this may be a little or a lot.

Do you want/ need or would benefit from more bend in your stance or less?

In general, taller people with longer, skinny legs are more likely to benefit from the addition of the spoiler than those with shorter sturdier legs.

Personally, it is pretty rare that I see the need to add forward lean to an clients boot. Particularly, in light of the angles of most bindings.
As a space filler sometimes, but to add more flexion, not so much.

Obviously, your results may vary. This is as it should be.


pliny the elder

 

[Chris V.]

I use the spoilers. When I bought my current boots, Technica Mach 1 LV 130s, the bootfitter swapped out the standard spoilers for a burlier pair he pulled out of some Head boots. I have low calf volume--which is a euphemism for skinny legs. That's not the only factor, but it is a factor.

 

[LiquidFeet]

So it sounds like some people who use the spoilers are taking up volume, and others are using them for more forward lean on order to get better balance over the skis.

For those of you who are after more forward lean, or for bootfitters reading this thread, how do spoilers compare to gas pedals for this task? Do they share the same pros and cons?

For instance, would a spoiler work better to help a person with balance if they have more dorsiflexion ROM whereas a gas pedal would do better if they have less ROM?

Anyone dead set against spoilers on principle?

 

[Wilhelmson]

We have a winner! Adding the spoiler effectively increases the forward angle of the rear spine. This increases knee flexion and ankle flexion and in turn, hip flexion. Depending on the diameter of your calf at the top of the boot, this may be a little or a lot.

Do you want/ need or would benefit from more bend in your stance or less?

In general, taller people with longer, skinny legs are more likely to benefit from the addition of the spoiler than those with shorter sturdier legs.

Personally, it is pretty rare that I see the need to add forward lean to an clients boot. Particularly, in light of the angles of most bindings.
As a space filler sometimes, but to add more flexion, not so much.

Obviously, your results may vary. This is as it should be.


pliny the elder

Great explanation so excuse this stupid question. If the spoiler is used to take up volume but inadvertently increase forward angle, is it sometimes necessary to make other adjustments to decrease forward angle?

 

[Josh Matta]

Great explanation so excuse this stupid question. If the spoiler is used to take up volume but inadvertently increase forward angle, is it sometimes necessary to make other adjustments to decrease forward angle?

On some boots the forward lean is adjustable

 

[VickieH]

For those of you who are after more forward lean, or for bootfitters reading this thread, how do spoilers compare to gas pedals for this task? Do they share the same pros and cons?

I'm interested in what the bootfitters say about this.

Last season, I had an adjustment made to my boots. First thing the bootfitter looked at was the forward lean. He reduced it to put me in a more balanced stance. (Boot has adjustable forward lean.) Then he tested whether adding a shim -- gas pedal -- would improve that balance. It was a toss-up ... not measurably better, but not worse.

That implies to me that a gas pedal does not increase forward lean.

 

[4ster]

Great explanation so excuse this stupid question. If the spoiler is used to take up volume but inadvertently increase forward angle, is it sometimes necessary to make other adjustments to decrease forward angle?

In my case it may be that the combination of tongue shim & spoiler almost cancel each other out.


I am not a bootfitter but I have spent a lot of time in boots & on the bootfitters bench. There are so many mitigating circumstances from the bindings angle to the natural shape of your foot and leg that it often takes some experimentation to come up with the right formula. I will leave it to the boot pros to explain ramp, delta, zeppa, ROM, Leg length discrepancy, canting, pronation, supination, etc.

 

[Josh Matta]

Gas pedal takes away the existing forward lean. In some case people feel better with gas pedaling but in reality they needed less. Forward lean.

 

[Andy Mink]

I take them out. Big calves. I had to push the rear of the cuff out to help accommodate my calves in my Raptors. I do wish the boots were a bit more upright as I seem to carry too much weight on my quads. Pushing my leg further forward in the boot would probably make that worse.

 

[UGASkiDawg]

Lange RS 130 Spoiler in

 

[Nancy Hummel]

My bootfitter took spoilers out. I am in a Lange RS130. I went to a clinic with Ron LeMaster and he had us do some balancing exercises and suggested I put them back in. However, this seemed to push my knees too far forward. One of my coaches suggested putting some boot material in between the tongue and plastic in the front. This took up some volume and seemed to put me in a better position fore/aft wise.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Gas pedal takes away the existing forward lean.....

I connected adding a gas pedal to adding forward lean because so many people here have posted that gas pedaling causes a skier to squat low. I'm assuming squatting low means ankles are dorsiflexing more, increasing forward lean of lower leg, to counteract the effect of the riser under the toe lugs.

But maybe squatting low doesn't mean that.

Or maybe those posts complaining about gas pedals messing up people's skiing are referring to skiers who passively allow the lifted toe to move their knees aft. Do skiers actually respond to gas pedaling that way?

I have no personal experience with gas pedals and don't know anyone who has had it done. Just wondering.

 

[Josh Matta]

yeah gas pedal raises the toes up, which means the angle of the leg will be more vertical and one thing to note because of the dynamic movement of skiing there really isnt a catch all or hard number to use for any of this.

I personally myself squat test my alignments but then adjust as need to make it work, my squat test is pretty close to idea to hard snow skiing for me, but I prefer slightly higher toes/more vertical lower legs on my powder ski.

 

[Doug Briggs]

No spoilers.

 

[Tricia]

With my chicken legs? I need the volume taken up.

This is the biggest reason.

Spoiler: Spoiler alert

I felt like this thread needed a spoiler alert.

 

[eok]

It all depends...depends on the individual's morphology, the binding delta, the boot shaft angle, the individual's preference. There is no one right answer.

This!

In my case, I tend to use the spoiler inserts for my skis that have a low binding delta & take them out for my skis that have significant delta. I kind of figured this out by accident when first skiing my high delta skis (Rallys with Head PRX bindings) as I felt "a bit too forward" on them. Took out the spoiler inserts and things felt much better. Took me a while to figure out it was actually the PRX delta I was fighting with.

 

[pliny the elder]

None of this is different than it was in the gas pedaling thread, the same rules still apply.
Let's try it again.
I think the best way to understand is to recognize that things inside the boot are different than things outside the boot.
Example:
A heel lift inside the boot (increasing zeppa ramp) decreases ankle flexion, but does not change knee flexion. This will normally increase the bend at the waist.
A external heel lift ( or binding ramp) will increase knee flexion, without changing ankle flexion. This will also increase bending at the waist. The hips will move back.
Dropping the heel inside the boot, increases ankle flex without changing knee flexion. This will decrease bending at the waist.
An external toe lift, decreases knee flex without changing ankle flex, this decreases bending at the waist. It makes the femur more vertical and moves the hips forward.
If this is misapplied or overdone, it creates a very static position that reduces the ability to adapt to changes in terrain by compression or extension.
Adding a spoiler to the boot increases ankle, knee and hip flex. The more forward lean the greater the angles become and the hips move lower and back.
This is all because there is a relationship between ankle, knee and hip flexion. To understand this, find a position where your knees, ankles and hips are all flexed and you feel like you can compress or extend evenly. Without changing the knee flexion, begin to decrease the ankle flex. As you do this, you will find yourself increasing the bend at the waist. This is what happens to people with limited dorsiflexion.
If the ankle can't do it's share of bending, the waist increases the flex to prevent you from falling over backwards. This is why so many people ski in that position. In fact, if it were not for the tails of their skis and the part of the toe piece of the binding that holds the boot down, they would fall over backwards.
These people do not benefit from more forward lean or more binding ramp.

pliny the elder