Which ski will be easier on my knee for hardpack?

[Monique]

A note on the falling leaf drill ... In my neck of the woods, it's done this way:
stand with skis across the hill
flatten them both and sideslip straight down the hill
keep sliding, but bend the ankles forward to press shins into the fronts of the boot cuffs
....the skis should keep sideslipping, but go diagonally forward not straight down the hill.
then open the ankles to press the calves against the backs of the cuffs
...the skis should keep sideslipping but go diagonally backwards down the hill.
Alternate opening and closing the ankles while sideslipping to see how this affects the sideslipping.
While doing this the skier can twist the skis to point the tips uphill while sideslipping forward,
...and twist them to turn the tails uphill while sideslipping backwards.
This should create a falling-leaf-like line down the hill.
Or you can twist the tips to point downhill to start a turn when you are diagonally sideslipping downhill.
In this way a falling leaf can be turned from a drill focusing on finishing a turn to a turn focusing on starting a turn with manual turning of the skis.
(There are other ways to start a turn from this point as well, maybe even better than twisting the skis. Try not twisting, but just sliding the downhill ski back about 3".)
Increase and decrease edging too; it's fun.


Monique and Marker, your falling leaf drill must be very different from the one I just described if picking up a leg to do it helps. I've heard that there are alternate versions of falling leaf from the one I just described. Can you describe how yours is different?

Hmm. I may have been thinking of pivot slips. But it's that transition from across the fall line to down the fall line at low speed that is difficult.

 

[cantunamunch]

Hmm. I may have been thinking of pivot slips. But it's that transition from across the fall line to down the fall line at low speed that is difficult.

How do you do it (which one of LF's methods do you use)? Break down the components of your actual motion here?

 

[Monique]

How do you do it (which one of LF's methods do you use)? Break down the components of your actual motion here?

There is no way I can sit here at the computer and try to recreate a motion I did a few weeks ago (pivot slips) or god knows how long ago (falling leaf) and compare it to what LF described. Sorry! What I know is that when I'm standing still across the fall line and want to make a turn from there, it's difficult. When I'm side slipping, it's marginally less difficult. Slow is hard.

 

[cantunamunch]

There is no way I can sit here at the computer and try to recreate a motion I did a few weeks ago (pivot slips) or god knows how long ago (falling leaf) and compare it to what LF described. Sorry! What I know is that when I'm standing still across the fall line and want to make a turn from there, it's difficult. When I'm side slipping, it's marginally less difficult. Slow is hard.

*shrug* it wasn't really about remembering, more about trying to recreate the intent of turning and observing (in the present tense) what ones body tries to do first. In that situation (I'm sitting at an office comp too) my body wants to nudge the downhill knee further over and close the uphill ankle...

 

[Monique]

*shrug* it wasn't really about remembering, more about trying to recreate the intent of turning and observing (in the present tense) what ones body tries to do first. In that situation (I'm sitting at an office comp too) my body wants to nudge the downhill knee further over and close the uphill ankle...

Hm. For falling leaf, I have been doing it long enough I don't really think about it. I think of it as "side slip forward / side slip back" ... I guess I tip my lower legs to match the slope and must use fore/aft pressure to create the forward and backward motions. Turning is when it gets messy because of what I DON'T do - I don't have my body countered, I don't simultaneously use both legs, I don't let the ski engage without forcing it...

But for any instructors out there PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND WITH SUGGESTED DRILLS, FOCAL POINTS, OR ANYTHING ELSE. Kthx. I'm answering a question, not asking for feedback.

 

[cantunamunch]

Hm. For falling leaf, I have been doing it long enough I don't really think about it. I think of it as "side slip forward / side slip back" ... I guess I tip my lower legs to match the slope and must use fore/aft pressure to create the forward and backward motions. Turning is when it gets messy because of what I DON'T do - I don't have my body countered, I don't simultaneously use both legs, I don't let the ski engage without forcing it...

'K, I think I have something pictured.

But for any instructors out there PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND WITH SUGGESTED DRILLS, FOCAL POINTS, OR ANYTHING ELSE. Kthx. I'm answering a question, not asking for feedback.

Yep, that part's clear too

 

[Seldomski]

What I know is that when I'm standing still across the fall line and want to make a turn from there, it's difficult. When I'm side slipping, it's marginally less difficult. Slow is hard.

Getting started on that first turn from a traverse can be the hardest - at least is was for me. I was taught a trick last year --

From a traverse, turn downhill slightly to gain a bit of speed, then back up the hill slightly to 'wind up' your core before making your first turn.

Example - you are traversing to skier's right looking to make your first turn left (right footer). Turn downhill slightly (left) to get a little more speed with your upper body down the mountain, then turn back up the hill (left foot pressure) with your upper body still facing downhill. You should feel your core stretch a bit and you should be in a position that you cannot hold for very long. Now execute your first turn (right foot pressure) as your core unwinds.

Dunno if this is cheating. Definitely helps me a lot to get that first turn going on something steep from a standstill or traversing position.

 

[Monique]

Getting started on that first turn from a traverse can be the hardest - at least is was for me. I was taught a trick last year --

From a traverse, turn downhill slightly to gain a bit of speed, then back up the hill slightly to 'wind up' your core before making your first turn.

Example - you are traversing to skier's right looking to make your first turn left (right footer). Turn downhill slightly (left) to get a little more speed with your upper body down the mountain, then turn back up the hill (left foot pressure) with your upper body still facing downhill. You should feel your core stretch a bit and you should be in a position that you cannot hold for very long. Now execute your first turn (right foot pressure) as your core unwinds.

Dunno if this is cheating. Definitely helps me a lot to get that first turn going on something steep from a standstill or traversing position.

If a person is looking for a way to get started on a tricky slope, it's definitely helpful.

Of course, if one is looking to clean up their turns to be able to do a drill correctly (ultimately resulting in better technique everywhere), not so much ;-)

In the "real world" scenario, last season I started exploring a simple side slip before the turn. The trick is that you have to do it properly, facing down the hill and stacked, not side slipping with your body still pointed up the hill in "scared rabbit" mode.

 

[KingGrump]

not side slipping with your body still pointed up the hill in "scared rabbit" mode.

 

[Rod9301]

Harb has the answer to this in one, two footed or weighted release.

Takes a few days to learn, but it's time well spent.

He had a few you tube videos on this.

 

[LiquidFeet]

The "stationary two-footed release" is quite difficult to learn for some skiers, especially when being told it has to be done without any femur rotation whatsoever. But it doesn't belong exclusively to HH. I used to watch a PSIA examiner do it as a demo for instructors in training sessions. His point was that releasing the new-inside-ski/downhill ski was essential to starting a turn. He'd do a full 360 turn right in front of us without any left-right travel and minimal downhill travel. It was simply motored by a downhill ski release. As he finished, he only had to make one or two steps to get back up the hill to stand in front of us. Back then I couldn't come close to doing that, and was amazed. My internal self-preservation-urge wouldn't allow me to let go of that downhill ski. It simply said NO.

With femur rotation, it's not so terribly difficult to learn. From a traverse, it's easy-peasy. But all versions require that the skier be able to ski with upper-body-lower-body-separation, IME.
.........
My personal way of teaching a simple version of the weighted release (aka flex-to-release, OLR):

Traverse ever-so-slightly downhill, on easy pitch terrain, at slow speed, skis parallel.
Face upper body pretty much downhill (essential for this to work).
Imagine a wire connecting your downhill hip to your downhill foot. It's imaginary. It's taut and passing through your body parts.
Slide that downhill hip downward along that wire towards the foot beneath it. AKA, lower your downhill hip towards the foot beneath it.
Better terminology: lower the new inside hip along that wire towards the new inside foot.

The skis will make a turn, and they will stay parallel, and both will stay on the snow. Coast to a stop facing the new direction.
Repeat in each direction, one turn to a stop at a time, until you feel the lowering of the hip working. Then link turns.
.........
This is as close to a weighted release as I can teach in a one hour lesson. It works for people who have difficulty releasing the new inside ski before edging the new outside ski. It outsmarts the student's self-preservation-urge that says NO to releasing the new inside ski since they don't know they are doing it.
It even works for people who are in a wedge, and gets them to parallel. But it has only worked for me if the skier is able to ski with upper-body-lower-body separation without losing it intermittently. Without that, in my short lessons it's been a failure.

This lowering of the hip along that imaginary wire makes a release of the downhill/new-inside-ski possible without the mind getting in the way and saying No Way HoZay am I going to let go of that downhill ski. Yes, the skier will start the turn slightly aft, but the skis catch up as they come around. The body will be square at the fall line and if the skier owns upper-body-lower-body-separation, they will ski into counter at the end of the turn. The turn will end with the body facing somewhat downhill and the skis pointed across the hill. This can be taught easily on beginner terrain and then taken up the hill.

Bonus: it purges the wedge and the inadvertent stem entry.

I know this is unorthodox in anyone's system, but hey, it's skiing.

 

[Fishbowl]

I’ve spent a lot of time this season working HH’s two footed release drill, trying to refine my edge control. The key for me was to make sure that I had my upper body position set first, then relax the downhill edge and allow the tips to seek the fall line. It’s all I the details, and as Harb says, you won’t get it the first time.

 

[Josh Matta]

https://www.pugski.com/threads/pmts-two-footed-release.1457/

 

[Monique]

The "stationary two-footed release" is quite difficult to learn for some skiers, especially when being told it has to be done without any femur rotation whatsoever. But it doesn't belong exclusively to HH. I used to watch a PSIA examiner do it as a demo for us instructors in training sessions. His point was that releasing the new-inside-ski/downhill ski was essential to starting a turn. He'd do a full 360 turn right in front of us without any left-right travel and minimal downhill travel. It was simply motored by a downhill ski release. He only had to make one step to get back up to the hill to stand in front of us. Back then I couldn't come close to doing that, and was amazed.

I haven't looked at the PMTS stuff, but I don't see how it could be exclusive to Mr. Harb, anyway. I just want to ski better, and it seems obvious (after someone points it out) that if you don't want to ski with a stem or a push or a lift, you also don't want to start that way, either. It's the natural extension of "it's harder to ski slow." I've taken classes from multiple PSIA instructors who've demonstrated being able to turn cleanly from a dead stop, and it seems to me that it's the only way to do pivot slips correctly, isn't it?

I don't know if that's the same as Mr. Harb's two footed release.

 

[Rod9301]

Of course harb doesn't have a monopoly on this. But he has a coherent way of teaching skiing that gets results.

 

[Philpug]

But he has a coherent way of teaching skiing that gets results.

Like anything else..in some situations.

 

[TahoeCharlie]

Like anything else..in some situations.

...in some situations???? And now I quickly exit before my post gets deleted again....

 

[Fishbowl]

I haven't looked at the PMTS stuff, but I don't see how it could be exclusive to Mr. Harb, anyway. I just want to ski better, and it seems obvious (after someone points it out) that if you don't want to ski with a stem or a push or a lift, you also don't want to start that way, either. It's the natural extension of "it's harder to ski slow." I've taken classes from multiple PSIA instructors who've demonstrated being able to turn cleanly from a dead stop, and it seems to me that it's the only way to do pivot slips correctly, isn't it?

I don't know if that's the same as Mr. Harb's two footed release.

No matter what the system is, none of the techniques in skiing are proprietary, but how those techniques are presented is what makes different systems unique. Harb has certainly created an extensive system of nomenclature to define his system and has a huge data base of media presentations of his techniques and drills. I think the Two Footed release drill from You Tube Josh linked is a great example of Harb providing a PMTS learning opportunity. No, doesn’t own the technique, but I think he does a good job of explaining it and providing a drill to refine the technique.