Which ski will be easier on my knee for hardpack?

[Marker]

I've nowhere the knee problems you've described, but have found a knee brace to be useful and psychologically comforting when skiing on a bad knee. Useful, because I got up after a bad fall and the sore knee did not even whimper. Comforting because I was skiing and not sitting on the coach thinking about and watching WC skiing. It's not a crutch because the knee I originally purchased the full brace for is now fine, and I'm using it on one I tweaked at the end of last season. Ligament injuries are a longer, year+ healing process compared to muscles, probably why some professional athletes break down so quickly, they never fully heal before returning to the slopes, field, court, etc.

I'm particularly interested in any special insights you've gained into dirty heel pushing, wide vs narrow skis, and knee pain. I'm making very irregular progress in breaking my habit of heel pushing. My narrow GS cheaters are a blast and they punish me for heel pushing, which is what I expect them to do. My wider all-mountain 88's are more forgiving, but can still be punishing if I don't stay balanced over their sweet spot. Maybe I answered my own request.

 

[Monique]

Interesting that you don't think you need to strengthen your quads when one of your legs is weaker.

Who said that? You're just trolling me at this point, right?

I need to even out my leg muscle, not blindly isolate one side's quad muscles in ways that may leave stabilizing muscles in a less effective state. I need to fix my proprioception so that my body will let me fully use what's there on my right side and so that when I feel like I'm at 50/50, I'm actually at 50/50. I'm not weak right now. I'm imbalanced.

FWIW, I just measured my quads fairly low, just above where you can see the outside of the muscle bulge (it's tricky to get just right), and they seem to be 0.5"-1" different in girth (heh, she said girth!). Not much on legs my size. That's 3-6%. Granted, if anything, my right side should be larger, not smaller. What's interesting is that when I flex or use the quad muscle, they look different. The muscle bulge is more noticeable on the left side.

I've nowhere the knee problems you've described, but have found a knee brace to be useful and psychologically comforting when skiing on a bad knee. Useful, because I got up after a bad fall and the sore knee did not even whimper. Comforting because I was skiing and not sitting on the coach thinking about and watching WC skiing. It's not a crutch because the knee I originally purchased the full brace for is now fine, and I'm using it on one I tweaked at the end of last season. Ligament injuries are a longer, year+ healing process compared to muscles, probably why some professional athletes break down so quickly, they never fully heal before returning to the slopes, field, court, etc.

I'm particularly interested in any special insights you've gained into dirty heel pushing, wide vs narrow skis, and knee pain. I'm making very irregular progress in breaking my habit of heel pushing. My narrow GS cheaters are a blast and they punish me for heel pushing, which is what I expect them to do. My wider all-mountain 88's are more forgiving, but can still be punishing if I don't stay balanced over their sweet spot. Maybe I answered my own request.

I find a knee brace psychologically disturbing ... I've mentioned this once or 18 times already, right? I've had a very bad collision at maybe 8 months out (both of us coming around a tree island, zooming a blue groomer, not paying enough attention) ,and I had a yard sale fall over a year out, and neither hurt my knee at all. It's not something I worry about beyond the basic "are all my parts intact?" check I have always done after a big fall.

My surgery was Dec 17, so it's now just a smidge over 1.5 years, at which point the new ACL should be as strong as it'll ever be. The meniscus is a harder question.

I believe that heel pushing puts unnecessary torque on the knee. Smearing from the center of the foot is probably better. It's a different force than carving, obviously. Maybe shear vs. direct or something like that?

I'm making decent progress with heel pushing - more since I was able to articulate the question I'd been subconsciously pondering - "What's the difference between a heel push and a smear?" - after which I was able to articulate what was actually changing when I felt like I wasn't heel pushing - which was that I was more centered over the arch of my foot. Before that, sometimes I could feel that something was different for a turn or two, but I couldn't tell what. Now I have something I can consciously check in with.

Note: I take lots of lessons. It helps with fixing technique issues. If you want to progress, that's a good bet. Lessons with experienced instructors who can articulate or demonstrate things in ways that make sense to you.

Also Note: some of this pain is very specific to my patella misbehaving, as described periodically in this thread and especially well by SBrown. That is very likely different than whatever pain you're experiencing; it sounds like that is more ligament based.

 

[cantunamunch]

We get it - witness: you don't want to amplify imbalance and you don't have the proprioception to correct for muscle strength gained in isolation and you have other tissue problems that make isolation work risky. If you had Hermann Maier's knees and muscle activation patterns we wouldn't be having this talk.

 

[Marker]

Thinking about your response, and what I read in the heel pushing thread, I must not be as balanced and centered as I think I am. I've been using falling leafs and one-footed skiing drills on the beginner slope to work on this, but I've discovered I have some immobility on one side of my lower spine/hip. I can't hold a one-footed stance for any length of time on my left foot. Sometimes I can carry the good sensations from those drills to the real slopes, other times not so much... I'm headed to Killington tomorrow for an extended Christmas holidays and plan to take some lessons and hit Snowshed to work on drills.

My specific fall was one that would have hurt or re-injured the bad knee, so I got up with trepidation, but skied away with no issues.

Sorry if I irritated you, just wanted to offer my experiences in case they prove useful. I don't expect agreement.

 

[Monique]

If you had Hermann Maier's knees and muscle activation patterns we wouldn't be having this talk.

I mean, I have to question whether his knees are so great at this point.

I theorize that a lot of pro athletes choose to push through pain that would stop me in my tracks, because their short term goals loom larger than their concerns about how they will feel or perform in 20-40 years. They also have access to a lot more professional help than I do, and they have more time to do it because it's their full time job.

BUT I'm way more fortunate than most. And at this point I'm confident in my team, which includes a personal trainer who also does MAT, a massage therapist every other week, and a few really great yoga teachers who emphasize listening to your body, not just pushing for more stretch. (You'd be surprised.) I have a dedicated room at home with a wide variety of rollers and other tools to help melt my muscles. I still have hope that I'll get this all sorted enough to ski without pain one day.

Especially once we get some snow!!!

 

[Monique]

Thinking about your response, and what I read in the heel pushing thread, I must not be as balanced and centered as I think I am. I've been using falling leafs and one-footed skiing drills on the beginner slope to work on this, but I've discovered I have some immobility on one side of my lower spine/hip. I can't hold a one-footed stance for any length of time on my left foot. Sometimes I can carry the good sensations from those drills to the real slopes, other times not so much... I'm headed to Killington tomorrow for an extended Christmas holidays and plan to take some lessons and hit Snowshed to work on drills.

My specific fall was one that would have hurt or re-injured the bad knee, so I got up with trepidation, but skied away with no issues.

Sorry if I irritated you, just wanted to offer my experiences in case they prove useful. I don't expect agreement.

No, I just hear about braces a lot . I mentioned early in the thread - my doc actually wasn't all that gung ho about braces. He said the risk of re-injuring the meniscus was higher with a brace. So he saw it as a choice to be made. As with everything after you hurt your knee, everything's a tradeoff.

Do you mean that you can't hold one foot on skis, or one foot standing still in regular shoes or barefoot?

I had some difficulty with mobility that my MAT guy was able to trace down to some poorly behaving muscles in my core ....

When you do falling leaf, can you initiate the turn without picking up one leg and with an even spacing between the legs throughout? (I can't!)

I'm working on railroad tracks right now. I have real trust issues. In life and in skiing! I remember an instructor telling me at one point that he starts *every* turn with a carve, even if it's just for a foot or so, before changing into a smear if appropriate. The more I play, the more this makes sense to me.

 

[Rod9301]

You may want to question your team if you still have one quad 1" bigger than the other. That's a LOT of muscle mass difference.

You should fix that first, work on the biggest muscles, then worry about imbalances.

 

[Monique]

You may want to question your team if you still have one quad 1" bigger than the other. That's a LOT of muscle mass difference.

You should fix that first, work on the biggest muscles, then worry about imbalances.

If you don't mind my asking, remind me of your credentials? Are you basing this on personal experience or on experience helping others rehab from a variety of injuries that are different than your own?

 

[cantunamunch]

I mean, I have to question whether his knees are so great at this point.

Well sure, but ~20 years ago when he was using Compex on his torn up/stitched up leg they were likely better than yours are now.

Even though I'm older than you by some bit I thought I was a far better electrostim candidate than you - but then I lost a skate axle last spring and re-tweaked my MCL so now I have my own share of doubts.

 

[Marker]

Perhaps the trade-offs with a brace have been favorable for me, but I can certainly understand how they might not be for you.

I can balance just fine on one foot, both left and right, and practice this at the gym in shoes. I've checked myself at home in bare feet and again no problem. So I'm mystified why even lifting my right heel off the snow is so hard. I suspect it's that inclination/angulation thing I need to work on with an instructor. I'm not sure about the falling leafs, I'll have to pay attention next time I do them. Thanks for the "suggestion".

 

[cantunamunch]

I can balance just fine on one foot, both left and right, and practice this at the gym in shoes. I've checked myself at home in bare feet and again no problem. So I'm mystified why even lifting my right heel off the snow is so hard. I suspect it's that inclination/angulation thing I need to work on with an instructor. I'.

Or it could be your boot cuffs have you in the wrong spot. For example, an over-edged boot cuff (tilted too far outwards) would do that almost all the time - while in bare feet you'd be fine.

 

[Marker]

I already plan on visiting a boot fitter at Killington on Friday morning.

 

[cantunamunch]

I already plan on visiting a boot fitter at Killington on Friday morning.

See, I'm more of a Thursday-evie Peak Perfomance guy myself - that way I can pop into Chef Claude's immediately after

 

[Varmintmist]

Interesting that you don't think you need to strengthen your quads when one of your legs is weaker.

Interesting that you quote something than type a smart ass reply that has exactly nothing to do with anything quoted.

 

[cantunamunch]

Interesting that you quote something than type a smart ass reply that has exactly nothing to do with anything quoted.

I noticed that but was completely willing to give him the benefit of the (multi-quote-feature-that-randomly-retains-previous-responses-in-a-very-scattered-thread) doubt. He seems knowledgeable about the system he uses and some enthusiasm is to be expected.

 

[Scruffy]

BUT I'm way more fortunate than most. And at this point I'm confident in my team, which includes a personal trainer who also does MAT, a massage therapist every other week, and a few really great yoga teachers who emphasize listening to your body, not just pushing for more stretch. (You'd be surprised.) I have a dedicated room at home with a wide variety of rollers and other tools to help melt my muscles. I still have hope that I'll get this all sorted enough to ski without pain one day.

You will, I would bet on it. You have the dedication. We're all pulling for you.

 

[Varmintmist]

I noticed that but was completely willing to give him the benefit of the (multi-quote-feature-that-randomly-retains-previous-responses-in-a-very-scattered-thread) doubt. He seems knowledgeable about the system he uses,but not how to use forum software and some enthusiasm is to be expected.

Editable
If one can be knowledgeable, then one can learn to use a forum. the quoted post is above the new text as it is typed, and there is a edit feature. The difference between enthusiasm and douchebagitry is presentation and limits.
I have tears in both meniscus, arthritis in at least one, and can still feel the MCL that I dinked up a bit and use the neoprene braces. Got a little experience and they work for me. Monique doesnt want to go that route. I am not coming on here and berating her about it.

 

[Monique]

One can also take a look around at a poster's general mode of being across multiple threads, and get a feeling for the kind of atmosphere they tend to foster. Which is independent of whether they grabbed the wrong quote, which is a mistake anyone can make. When you see that someone tends to be confrontational wherever they go, it's easier not to take it personally.

Anyway, thank you, @Varmintmist . I fully realize that a lot of people love braces. I just have never wanted one. There are all of the rational arguments I've made, and then the more visceral basic stance I started from.

 

[AmyPJ]

I don't WANT a brace, but the man friend and I were playing around at home, boots on, in skis, with tipping maneuvers. (Now that we know I have a torn LCL, and that it DOES cause me pain, we are trying to figure out how to address it.) Anyway, he had me tip back and forth, several times, without the brace, and I was wincing in pain. Put the brace on (this is a fairly simple over the counter brace with hinged support) and the pain was not there anymore. I was actually shocked. (Did I mention that I also do NOT want to wear a brace?)

I don't notice the pain while I'm skiing, at least not consciously, because of the external factors at play. But I guarantee it causes me to ski more defensively on that side, because it does hurt me, and my subconscious feels it. I just paid out the nose to have a custom brace made for me, some fancy titanium doohickey that I blanched at, but if it helps me ski happier, then it's worth it.

Anyway, I know you've said ad-nausea "no brace" and I totally get why. (They are a pain in the ass!) Just don't rule it out if you don't find satisfactory relief from the change in skis and other things. Our bodies are never the same after major injuries (and surgeries) unfortunately. I guess if an exoskeleton helps, it's not the end of the world.

On that note, I'm glad the Armadas are making it feel better. FWIW, I am also downsizing my skis from a 166 to a 159 in the Black Pearl. I demoed the shorter length and it just is that much easier to release the edges which = less torque on the knee. My happy length is honestly about a 162, but my happy SKI is the Black Pearl, so I'll compromise. I'm also going shorter with my powder/crud skis, to a 164 Sheeva 10, down from a 169 Santa Ana. (And we know how I love those Santa Anas!)

 

[Daves not here]

I blew my ACL out about 5 years ago - dinged up the meniscus and have OA in that knee. I was skiing 9 months later - but doc insisted on a brace. So I got the NFL looking Donjoy Defiance. As far as braces go - I don’t mind it at all. I still ski with it 5 years later and it does not bother me or my performance on the slopes. Do I need it? Probably not. I workout w/o it and knee feels good. I think I mentally depend upon it for the slopes. Will I stop using It? I tell myself I should but I doubt I will!