The Never-Ending Zipfit Discussion

[Tony Storaro]

What this is getting at is that it's really the rear spine of the boot shell that is the primary "driver" for the application of force to the skis. The front of the cuff and powerstrap "connect" our leg to the boot spine which is has the most direct path in applying the forces. Of course this all assumes a 2-piece overlap shell design. When you look at a 3-piece cabrio style boot, then it can be argued that the external boot tongue has much more of a direct relationship in applying the pressure.

That said, our shin still moves forward in relation to the boot position in order to apply forward pressure. So any "sloppiness" in the interface between the front of the boot (this includes the liner tongue) and the roof of the boot lower is going to introduce a delay in the transference of your movements to the skis. If you only have a tight power strap, but a loose liner/shell, then I suppose it would still be possible to transfer the movements, but they would be "gross" movements stemming from the big muscles of the leg/body rather than the smaller more "fine tuned" movements coming from the foot and ankles. That's at least my take on this.

I see. Yeah, makes sense, the spine is the biggest and longest solid piece of plastic in the booth cuff-a lever of sorts.
Come to think of it, it is the part that the overall flex of the boot depends on and where you can adjust the flex by removing 1 or 2 bolts-depending on the type of booth.

Anyway, I prefer to go by my feeling and intuition while skiing. If I start to think too much about it on the slopes, I wont be able to enjoy it, it 'd be like thinking about mechanics, and friction and hormonal response during sex-it will screw the whole experience...

 

[Joby Graham]

Now, you got me thinking...let see...it will be shin-tongue-shell...errmm....toes? Is that what you mean?

But anyway, for me personally, the most annoying thing is if there is a space between the shin and the tongue, if there is a free play in that area. I can ski with the lower buckles unbuckled , with the ZipFits I can even ski with the 3rd one unbuckled, but I absolutely need the power strap tight.

And please note there is not much thinking I am putting into the process of skiing, it is all pure intuition..

Intuition - I see what you did, there!

 

[givethepigeye]

Back in the game . Now @Noodler - where were those fitting instructions.

 

[Noodler]

Back in the game . Now @Noodler - where were those fitting instructions.

View attachment 97530

They're right here.

 

[givethepigeye]

@Noodler thanks - you still recommend heating the shell too?

 

[Tony Storaro]

@Noodler thanks - you still recommend heating the shell too?

IMHO if you can put the warm liner in the boot shell-room temperature, do not heat it. I didn't and it worked quite ok.
That might depend on how your shell fits.

P.S. Is that the Gara?

 

[Tony Storaro]

Intuition - I see what you did, there!

Yeah.
If in doubt which ZipFit liner to choose, go with your Intuition...

 

[givethepigeye]

@Tony Storaro its a WC. I had a Gara in my Nordica Patron Pros. At first it wouldnt even buckle to close the overlap. Finally worked it enough to get it buckled. The RS130s fit a little bigger - so figured a WC would work, found one on Ebay. These went in the shell cold (both shell and liner) and I could buckle it - so I’m pretty sure they will work. The liner was straight from outside mail. It’s about 50 F degrees here today. Should fit better when it gets all quishy warm.

I took the Velcro off my old ones and actually replaced the sliding lace thing with just a regular boot lace - will probably do the same. Hope they work out. If not, I’ll just sell them on. My Lange liners seem to be ok too. Now all we need is to be able to ski again. Stay safe!

 

[Tony Storaro]

@Tony Storaro its a WC. I had a Gara in my Nordica Patron Pros. At first it wouldnt even buckle to close the overlap. Finally worked it enough to get it buckled. The RS130s fit a little bigger - so figured a WC would work, found one on Ebay.

Same as me-liner and boots. I did not heat the shells, but the liners definitely need to be heated.
Although it wont kill them if you heat them up to 100C I believe, the RS shells are not heat moldable, but if you can buckle them-why bother?

 

[Noodler]

@Noodler thanks - you still recommend heating the shell too?

Depends on a few things:

1. Is the liner new? If it is, then definitely do NOT heat the shell as you need to get the liner to adjust to the shell, not the other way around.
2. Does the liner already easily fit in the shell? If so, then you probably don't need to heat the shell.
3. Do you have any hot spots when test fitting the liner (assuming it is used)? If so, then heating the shell may be in order, but be careful with heat moldable shells when selecting the oven temp. They're all different.

 

[givethepigeye]

These are used liners. I didnt have any shell work done, ill probably just put the shells in the heated bag on HI, and cook the liners and let it go. If only to keep the liners warm longer (less heat transfer) for more quishy time.

 

[Brad J]

I know I am of a different thought process than @Noodler on shell heating vs liner heating , my concern with the liner heating is that the pouches that hold the OMFit is also plastic and at what temperature does that plastic get compromised ??. I certainly don’t know ! My recommendation is to figure that out first and then heat away . I have used the boiling water method with success and that is 212 F. I really think the OM fit moves at a temperature of about 150F fairly well. I am just concerned that overheating the liner may have as many problems as over heating the mold able shells. I just automatically go buy the manufacturer recommended instructions.

 

[givethepigeye]

@Brad J - when I got my first pair at Snowbird - they threw the liners into an intuition convection oven

 

[Brad J]

I am sure they did , but at what temperature??? All I am doing is asking if the temperatures of 225 is safe to do ???? If the plastic is safe to 300F , 400F or whatever, I would like to know before I use a process that differs from the developer’s instruction’s

 

[Noodler]

I am sure they did , but at what temperature??? All I am doing is asking if the temperatures of 225 is safe to do ???? If the plastic is safe to 300F , 400F or whatever, I would like to know before I use a process that differs from the developer’s instruction’s

Did you read my instructions? If so, please understand that what I have provided has been used many, many times on many, many liners by many, many people with total success. I have ZipFits that have been used for lots of years that were all fit in this manner. In fact, I dissected one of my very first pairs this season to fully harvest all the OMFit compound out of the bladders and there was absolutely no sign of the plastic being compromised.

The point of using the higher heat is to allow the liner's upper cuff plastic to mold to the shape of the boot. It's not to just mold the OMFit compound. If all you want to do is mold the cork, then it's easier to just throw the liner in the microwave.

 

[Viking9]

When I received my Garas the other day I did them Noodler style but I did put my shells in the oven for five minutes only because I didn’t want to struggle getting the liners to go in . I have 2018 Rossignol Allspeeds and the shells were fine and were not compromised.In hindsight if I would have just moved the buckle to its most open position, 2nd from the top,I would not have needed to warm them up,but it did make them very playable and easy.
At room temperature I have no problems putting my liners on and then slipping them into the shell, almost too easy with all the talk I hear from other people.
I do know that my Rossi’s and my Mach 1’s advertise the fact that they are both designed for easy entry.

 

[vindibona1]

I recognize that for some skiers their preference might be to always have a very tight coupling across the midfoot into the forefoot, but I have learned to like having a bit more freedom at that part of the boot to really use my feet to control edge pressure. This goes back to some of my old posts about trying to be more of a "foot" skier (by skiing from the ground up) rather than a "knee" skier (where you're just throwing your knees back and forth to produce edge angles).

Being a "foot skier" IMO is the only way to be a solid and efficient skier. The foot and ankle alone can get the ski started doing what it needs to do and everything else follows rather than leads.

What this is getting at is that it's really the rear spine of the boot shell that is the primary "driver" for the application of force to the skis. The front of the cuff and powerstrap "connect" our leg to the boot spine which is has the most direct path in applying the forces. Of course this all assumes a 2-piece overlap shell design. When you look at a 3-piece cabrio style boot, then it can be argued that the external boot tongue has much more of a direct relationship in applying the pressure.

That said, our shin still moves forward in relation to the boot position in order to apply forward pressure. So any "sloppiness" in the interface between the front of the boot (this includes the liner tongue) and the roof of the boot lower is going to introduce a delay in the transference of your movements to the skis. If you only have a tight power strap, but a loose liner/shell, then I suppose it would still be possible to transfer the movements, but they would be "gross" movements stemming from the big muscles of the leg/body rather than the smaller more "fine tuned" movements coming from the foot and ankles. That's at least my take on this.

I hadn't thought of the rear spine as the driver of applied pressure, but I suppose that's how it works. Thanks for cluing me in. But for general skiing, IF YOU ARE A "FOOT SKIER", I'm not sure how much a bit looser tightening of the buckles and power strap helps, except in high performance situations. I've found that only moderate tightening of the top two buckles and power strap, perhaps a bit on the loose side allowed my feet to do more, but tight enough that the amount of motion needed was really no different than if my buckles were tight. But you're right about the tongue fit on the instep and up the shin. That is the critical part for me and one of the revelations of my new Tecnica boots. They have removable tongues, and sliding their position back one "notch" made all the difference in the world in terms of how the tongue meshed with my instep and shin.

 

[givethepigeye]

Anyone have a line on OMfit? Don’t think I will need any but better to have and not need than need and not have, A tube would probably suffice

 

[Brad J]

Anyone have a line on OMfit? Don’t think I will need any but better to have and not need than need and not have, A tube would probably suffice

I got some at Lockwoods a few years ago , I had to call them as there web site showed out of stock, I think they also had a kit that consisted of 10 tubes and a plunger, you can also call Zipfit in Aspen , the number is on their web site, a recording directs you to a another number. little cumbersome but it gets you to a real person.

 

[Noodler]

Anyone have a line on OMfit? Don’t think I will need any but better to have and not need than need and not have, A tube would probably suffice

This is the link for the U.S. distributor located in Monument, CO. It may not be the lowest price you'll ever find, but it also won't be the highest.