The Never-Ending Zipfit Discussion

[Viking9]

Ok so the liners just arrived like they said, followed your instructions Noodler though I did put my shell in for 5 minutes and everything slipped in fine ,no issues buckling.
It’s almost too easy.
My foot feels great, like I’m under the covers with Jennifer Anderson and she’s giving me a foot massage.
Something has to be wrong ,,,,I just know it.It feels too good,,,I am not worthy.

 

[Noodler]

Ok so the liners just arrived like they said, followed your instructions Noodler though I did put my shell in for 5 minutes and everything slipped in fine ,no issues buckling.
It’s almost too easy.
My foot feels great, like I’m under the covers with Jennifer Anderson and she’s giving me a foot massage.
Something has to be wrong ,,,,I just know it.It feels too good,,,I am not worthy.

Glad you're enjoying the new liners.

Your post did remind me that in the list of advice for a ZipFit liner it should be stressed that a ZipFit is quite unlike most stock liners through mid-foot area and into the toe box. The mid-foot uses layers of neoprene material that is generally much less "volume" than a foam padded liner (unless you have a stock race liner from a race shell). That means it and your foot will fit in a narrower shell.

The toe box is stretch neoprene, like many liners now have, but it includes a shearling wool inner layer that is meant to "snuggle" your toes. A well fit ZipFit fits more like a tight slipper than a roomy sneaker. Your toes shouldn't be crushed, but they will sit nestled in the wool "nest".

 

[Viking9]

Yep, that’s exactly how they feel. I just walked for almost a half hour and I really should be tearing my boot off and the balls of my feet should be on fire,,,,,,,but their not. I don’t know. The way things are going I could go out to dinner and then do the Hannenkamen and then I guess un buckle my boots I don’t know .
I definitely can see the problem with heating the shells too much and damaging them. The overlap wanted to cave in after only 5 minutes.I have the top of the line Rossi, of course , 130 Allspeed Elite with a 98 last. I wear a 10 1/2 street shoe and I’m in a 26.5.My Gara is a 26.5.
Thanks for everything !!.
I probably should tell that guy that’s having all the trouble with the Utah stores to just buy some Zipfits and get over it.
Thanks again USC for the heads up, I would never have pulled the trigger at $ 425.00.

 

[Viking9]

One last thing that seemed to work for me is that if you have circulation issues I would bet that you need some room for your toes or you don’t stand a chance. I ended up buying the stock Superfeet foot beds, the gold version and I cut it in half so that I get the heel and arch support but the front of my foot gets the room I need.
The way the sock style neoprene / wool toe box is constructed with the Zipfit and the back half of your foot being locked in, you might want to try it if any of you are having issues.

 

[SLC Skier]

Glad you're enjoying the new liners.

Your post did remind me that in the list of advice for a ZipFit liner it should be stressed that a ZipFit is quite unlike most stock liners through mid-foot area and into the toe box. The mid-foot uses layers of neoprene material that is generally much less "volume" than a foam padded liner (unless you have a stock race liner from a race shell). That means it and your foot will fit in a narrower shell.

The toe box is stretch neoprene, like many liners now have, but it includes a shearling wool inner layer that is meant to "snuggle" your toes. A well fit ZipFit fits more like a tight slipper than a roomy sneaker. Your toes shouldn't be crushed, but they will sit nestled in the wool "nest".

Because the forefoot of the Zipfit has so little material and takes up very little volume, would this make an otherwise very snug fit boot/liner combo feel much looser if you used a Zipfit?

I replaced my stock Salomon S/Max 130 liners with DFP liners which take up quite a bit of volume everywhere. I am pretty happy with them after a very painful break in period, but am wondering if Zipfits could have been an option. How does the thin forefoot material in the zips effect the feel in the front of the boot? Seems like it would certainly be less snug

 

[oldfashoned]

I am working my Gara liners into a pair of S/Max 130’s. Switching between these and the stock liner there is not much difference in volume in the forefoot. Stock liner fit in that area is more snug, but my foot moves around more in the boot, especially by the end of the day. I don’t mind the little wiggle room in the toes I get with the ZipFit in these boots.

 

[Noodler]

Because the forefoot of the Zipfit has so little material and takes up very little volume, would this make an otherwise very snug fit boot/liner combo feel much looser if you used a Zipfit?

I replaced my stock Salomon S/Max 130 liners with DFP liners which take up quite a bit of volume everywhere. I am pretty happy with them after a very painful break in period, but am wondering if Zipfits could have been an option. How does the thin forefoot material in the zips effect the feel in the front of the boot? Seems like it would certainly be less snug

When I consider the question you posed I like to focus on what are the key "control interfaces" between your foot/ankle/leg and the boot shell. These are the key areas where you really can't afford to have any "slop". First thing that I think of is the heel hold down. A ZipFit has this in spades. Probably the best hold down I've ever had from any liner, but if you have a low instep, be prepared to need additional OMFit material added low in the tongue.

Next in priority is the instep contact with the roof of the shell. This was actually a bit of a revelation for me last season when I began to understand just how critical dorsiflexion movement is for maintaining solid fore/aft balance. This didn't become apparent until my experiments with adding different amounts of toe lift (gas pedal) to my shells. Once I was truly balanced, I became more sensitive to the fact that any gap above the instep will delay the transmission of fore/aft balancing movements to the boots -> skis. Luckily this fit is easily adjustable for ZipFit liners and dynamically adaptable to your foot shape each and every ski day.

Surprisingly I have found that I actually like a bit of "comfort" on the sides of my feet rather than the crush of a really narrow plug shell (like my B2 RD Raptors). When you want the ultimate in responsiveness and control then a very narrow fit is ideal, but my new Nordica GPX 130 boot (98mm stated last) taught me to ski even more from my feet. Rolling my feet laterally (inversion/eversion) to control the strength of the edging. Note that there is a "secret" 3rd chamber in a ZipFit's heel/ankle bladder and this chamber sits more over the side of the instep toward the midfoot zone. By default it does not have any OMFit compound, but can easily have it added to fine tune just how much you can "roll" your foot inside of the shell. I plan on experimenting with this a bit more next season in the GPX 130 shells.

So if you're still with me, that was my really long-winded way of saying that a bit more "comfort" in the midfoot-forefoot zone has worked for me with a ZipFit liner. I recognize that for some skiers their preference might be to always have a very tight coupling across the midfoot into the forefoot, but I have learned to like having a bit more freedom at that part of the boot to really use my feet to control edge pressure. This goes back to some of my old posts about trying to be more of a "foot" skier (by skiing from the ground up) rather than a "knee" skier (where you're just throwing your knees back and forth to produce edge angles).

Hope this helps.

 

[Noodler]

I am working my Gara liners into a pair of S/Max 130’s. Switching between these and the stock liner there is not much difference in volume in the forefoot. Stock liner fit in that area is more snug, but my foot moves around more in the boot, especially by the end of the day. I don’t mind the little wiggle room in the toes I get with the ZipFit in these boots.

And there it is. Of course you stated it way more succinctly.

 

[Tony Storaro]

@Noodler: Absolutely right! I'd add to that only the tongues and their contact with the shins as this is the most important in flexing the boots and hence pushing the ski.
I will probably add a tube of OMFit in each tongue next season as I find them a bit suboptimal. Need some more time tho, perhaps I am just imagining it.

 

[KingGrump]

I'd add to that only the tongues and their contact with the shins as this is the most important in flexing the boots and hence pushing the ski.

It is only most important if you subscribe to that specific belief.

 

[Tony Storaro]

It is only most important if you subscribe to that specific belief.

Right. Well in my case, the contact point between my lower legs and the boots is where the shins meet the tongues.
For you it might be different.

 

[KingGrump]

Right. Well in my case, the contact point between my lower legs and the boots is where the shins meet the tongues.
For you it might be different.

Not talking about the contact point. More the shin must contact the tongue at all time belief.

 

[Noodler]

It is only most important if you subscribe to that specific belief.

This probably isn't the thread for the discussion, but I think I know where that statement is going. I honestly do want to better understand where you "believe" the control over your skis come from when the boots are unbuckled.

 

[KingGrump]

This probably isn't the thread for the discussion, but I think I know where that statement is going. I honestly do want to better understand where you "believe" the control over your skis come from when the boots are unbuckled.

The spline.

A lot also depend on how and what you want to ski.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Not talking about the contact point. More the shin must contact the tongue at all time belief.

No.I do not subscribe to that. I do not feel it this way. For me the centre point of the balance is between the tongue and the cuff, not pressing too much in either direction.
But I do press the tongues when I push the skis and I need good solid contact with the tongues so I can push harder.

 

[KingGrump]

For me the centre point of the balance is between the tongue and the cuff, not pressing too much in either direction.

So you say you are balancing in between. Good place to be.
Are your tib/fib hanging in the air? If not, what is supporting them?

But I do press the tongues when I push the skis and I need good solid contact with the tongues so I can push harder.

So you are saying pushing on the tongue allows you to push the skis harder?
What path do the power/pressure/signal from your shin/tongue take to get to the ski?
Is there something else between the tongue and the ski?

The questions are not facetious. Just try to clarify my understanding of your thinking.

 

[Noodler]

The spline.

A lot also depend on how and what you want to ski.

Spline or spine (as in the rear spine of the boot)? If it's actually spline, then we need a new thread.

 

[KingGrump]

Fat fingers. The rear spine of the boot.

Here is a video from Start Haus on softening a ski boot.

 

[Tony Storaro]

So you are saying pushing on the tongue allows you to push the skis harder?
What path do the power/pressure/signal from your shin/tongue take to get to the ski?
Is there something else between the tongue and the ski?

The questions are not facetious. Just try to clarify my understanding of your thinking.

Now, you got me thinking...let see...it will be shin-tongue-shell...errmm....toes? Is that what you mean?

But anyway, for me personally, the most annoying thing is if there is a space between the shin and the tongue, if there is a free play in that area. I can ski with the lower buckles unbuckled , with the ZipFits I can even ski with the 3rd one unbuckled, but I absolutely need the power strap tight.

And please note there is not much thinking I am putting into the process of skiing, it is all pure intuition..

 

[Noodler]

Now, you got me thinking...let see...it will be shin-tongue-shell...errmm....toes? Is that what you mean?

But anyway, for me personally, the most annoying thing is if there is a space between the shin and the tongue, if there is a free play in that area. I can ski with the lower buckles unbuckled , with the ZipFits I can even ski with the 3rd one unbuckled, but I absolutely need the power strap tight.

And please note there is not much thinking I am putting into the process of skiing, it is all pure intuition..

What this is getting at is that it's really the rear spine of the boot shell that is the primary "driver" for the application of force to the skis. The front of the cuff and powerstrap "connect" our leg to the boot spine which is has the most direct path in applying the forces. Of course this all assumes a 2-piece overlap shell design. When you look at a 3-piece cabrio style boot, then it can be argued that the external boot tongue has much more of a direct relationship in applying the pressure.

That said, our shin still moves forward in relation to the boot position in order to apply forward pressure. So any "sloppiness" in the interface between the front of the boot (this includes the liner tongue) and the roof of the boot lower is going to introduce a delay in the transference of your movements to the skis. If you only have a tight power strap, but a loose liner/shell, then I suppose it would still be possible to transfer the movements, but they would be "gross" movements stemming from the big muscles of the leg/body rather than the smaller more "fine tuned" movements coming from the foot and ankles. That's at least my take on this.