The Never-Ending Zipfit Discussion

[Noodler]

the above to a gazillion....

I'd heard on Snowheads forum (a UK based snow website) about zipfits... and how they can take a few days to bed in and be quite or decidedly uncomfortable until then.

BUT - my experience was essentially nirvana from the first run.

Step ZERO : you'd be far, far, far better off checking the liner in your boot rather than just guessing/estimating/hoping. I was fitted at Jans at Park City into my Zipfits. First shell check feet only in shell (Atomic Hawx 120's previously shell moulded/heated and used with the stock Atomic liner), and he decided to try the Gara model.. and certainly, even this zipfit novice could tell a larger volumed model wasn't an option...

Step ONE = more or less as Noodler says.
In my case at a boot/ski shop, he put the Zipfit in the boot shell cooker (think it was a Fischer box but, meh, whatever... a very hot box, for what would be the usual shell heating time, say ten mins?) So liner comes out good and very hot... with all that Zipfit Omfit goop ready to move about far more easily than body temp would achieve.

As noodler also says, I reckon it's this step that's critical (note my shell was left as is, not warmed up at all) - yes, the zipfit will mould naturally with time... but getting it really good and hot is the way to go... and then:

Step TWO = liners on feet, laced up good and snug with the liner booster strap snug too and into the boots... and buckles done up fairly snugly (not as tight as a foam fit but really fairly tight...) and then WALK AROUND... a good 15 or 20 mins, walking in those boots, flexing and getting all that OMfit stuff moving around. This is unlike any other liner fitting step, where you're usually standing stationary flexed slightly into the boot tongue.
No.
Walk and flex and work all that material around while it's good and hot and really mobile.

Step THREE = go skiing as soon as possible.
What this means is... get fit first thing in the morning, like I did. Jans there is only 10mins away from the slopes, so as soon as I was done i was off to the chair lift.
Decidedly tight fit when unbuckled going up the lift, do up buckles (top two only need to be one finger tight, no need to use your hand heel to get leverage and tight clamp... while buckle is undone you csn flex forwrd to drive heel into the pocket (less damaging to floors then a heel bang of boot to do the same job) and ski.
One short run and all was fine. Astonishing heel hold without any need to crank the boot buckles tight.

DID go back a couple days later to remould shell - toe caps on feet inside the liner, and thin pads on the ankle bone spots on the OUTSIDE of the liner just to relieve those areas, heat and remould shell and perfect.

Note - do have a good, powerful boot heater or heated boot bag so you can get the liner and that omfit stuff nice and warm first thing.

Thanks for posting this info. I think this is the first report "from the field" that depicts a shop actually following this fitting process rather than the published "official" ZipFit procedure. My first pair of Zips were also done this way by Steve Bagley at Snowbird. I remember the pain I had to endure skiing in them to complete the fitting process. What I do now instead is at least 3 iterations of the heating process while at home. I do my best to get the liners fit to the shell and my feet before hitting the snow. Skiing in them is then more of a fine tuning step (using a hot gear bag to ski in a warm liner as noted above). I don't believe we can expect ski shops to go through 3 heating cycles, but I guess you can always ask!

 

[coops]

Something of a chicken and egg situation, isn't it...

To go to a foam fitted liner as an example... it would make sense to me to first punch and grind the shell to allow for any sixth toes or any other large lumpy bits on your feet... after all the foam liner is going to fill up any gap... so first try to get an even gap between shell and foot for a FOAMED liner especially. After then you could heat mould a shell for any bad spots... but with the foam liner you surely need to get the shell fairly right before foaming ( unless you're Surefoot, in which case you can just shove someone in a bigger size Lange shell than they should be in and fill it up... :-(. )

In my case, i'd already had the shell prepared and moulded to fit with the Atomic platinum liner... maybe this is the best way with Zipfit liners and a new boot - i.e. treat the OEM liner as expendable, for shell fitting/ moulding prior to Zipfit liner fitting? ( As long as that liner isn't excessively oversized for 'comfort' - frm the Gara low volume zipfit liner i can say the Atomic liner seems fine for that purpose!

Anyway... I was expecting and prepared for some break in period, but was immediately happy/ stunned by the fit and perforamance. The modern heat mould shells made that final adjustment a one time, easy and perfect final step.

Seriously.... skied all morning without faffing at all with buckle tightness/ pressure.... stop for lunch, flip buckles up, lean forward to open the shell a bit, walk around to order beer and food, and afterwards one finger buckle back again to same as before and ski for the rest of the day.
Repeat to end of Utah trip.

( Errr, apart from demoing and then. 'having' to purchase the ex-demo Kastle MX89s because... it would have been rude and down right stupid not to buy them).

 

[ski otter 2]

Nothing beats experimentation, thx for sharing. Was the size of the lumpy fitting liner the same as the shell size?

The RS 130s are the same size as the zips, both Gara (with more fill added) and Grand Prix. The Dobermans are a size larger. (The Zips, to me so far, seem to be a mix of smaller and larger than the O.E. liner: smaller from the ankle down, larger above. That's what I needed.

 

[maxwerks]

The RS 130s are the same size as the zips, both Gara (with more fill added) and Grand Prix. The Dobermans are a size larger. (The Zips, to me so far, seem to be a mix of smaller and larger than the O.E. liner: smaller from the ankle down, larger above. That's what I needed.

I was in a local shop today to test the Gara and Grand Prix Neoprene liners in my Atomic FIS 150 shells. I could not spot any difference between them, except for the amount of OMFit. Both appear to be made from the same last. The liners are much more bulky than my stock liner, but I did manage to properly close the shells. Incredible ankle hold and good toe room. Based on this, I plan to go ahead with the Gara Neoprene, which I can get for a great price. I also like the Freeride Leather on offer at Lockwoods, assuming it's volume can be reduced to that of the Gara by removing some OMFit.

 

[maxwerks]

I also like the Freeride Leather on offer at Lockwoods, assuming it's volume can be reduced to that of the Gara by removing some OMFit.

Extra appeal of the Freeride liner is to double use it in my other shells, Atomic Hawx XTD 130 24.5

 

[Noodler]

I was in a local shop today to test the Gara and Grand Prix Neoprene liners in my Atomic FIS 150 shells. I could not spot any difference between them, except for the amount of OMFit. Both appear to be made from the same last. The liners are much more bulky than my stock liner, but I did manage to properly close the shells. Incredible ankle hold and good toe room. Based on this, I plan to go ahead with the Gara Neoprene, which I can get for a great price. I also like the Freeride Leather on offer at Lockwoods, assuming it's volume can be reduced to that of the Gara by removing some OMFit.

Only "bulky" until it's fully broken in.

 

[maxwerks]

Only "bulky" until it's fully broken in.

I was only just able to close the shell. The bulk of the zipfit was an issue between 2nd and 3rd buckle. The lower shell remained open in a V and it required quite a bit of force to overlap the shell at 3rd buckle. Once closed it felt OK. I wonder if this is a matter of breaking in the liner, or that the liner is (almost) too bulky for the shell. Given that @Noodler manages to use a 25cm zipfit liner with a 27cm foot, perhaps I should downsize to a 24.0 or even 23.5 zipfit liner for reduced bulk. My biggest foot measures 243mm. Does anyone know if zipfits are produced in half sizes?

 

[Noodler]

I was only just able to close the shell. The bulk of the zipfit was an issue between 2nd and 3rd buckle. The lower shell remained open in a V and it required quite a bit of force to overlap the shell at 3rd buckle. Once closed it felt OK. I wonder if this is a matter of breaking in the liner, or that the liner is (almost) too bulky for the shell. Given that @Noodler manages to use a 25cm zipfit liner with a 27cm foot, perhaps I should downsize to a 24.0 or even 23.5 zipfit liner for reduced bulk. My biggest foot measures 243mm. Does anyone know if zipfits are produced in half sizes?

ZipFit liners are available in full size steps, but at the half size mark. So, 24.5, 25.5, 26.5, etc. See sizing recommendations here.

When the liners were first "introduced" to my shells, the overlap was spread apart by over an inch. This initial "bulkiness" is why a lot of shops don't think the liners will work in certain shells, but this is a mistake. Once the liner is properly broken in, it will significantly adjust to match the shell.

Note that hand massaging the OMfit material around the bladders is sometimes necessary. Don't rely on your foot alone in being able to "flex" enough to get the cork to move around.

 

[maxwerks]

Thx again for sharing from experience. Sven's fitting instructions appear to confirm that a 245 liner should be OK in my 245 shells. He also emphasises the use of a heated boot bag and regularly walk around in reheated shells to update the fit. Not sure that holds up with memory fit shells, since you're supposed to keep very still in them when they are heated.

 

[coops]

Thx again for sharing from experience. Sven's fitting instructions appear to confirm that a 245 liner should be OK in my 245 shells. He also emphasises the use of a heated boot bag and regularly walk around in reheated shells to update the fit. Not sure that holds up with memory fit shells, since you're supposed to keep very still in them when they are heated.

I'd imagine Sven was just suggesting having the shell warmed up so the zipfit goop stays mobile longer, but NOT so hot the shell is ready for remoulding of a memory fit plastic shell - i.e. like my Heat mouldable Hawx shells. So, in other words... NO , don't be walking around or moving, flexing at all if your mouldable shell is in its hot/flexible mouldable state.

If you have the original liner, then seems like the best thing is to use that to mould the shell first, so then you have a shell that is a decent fit around your foot and any bumps and lumps.

Then discard that liner and fit your zipfits once the boot shell is back to room temp and stable again... get the liners very hot, and yes walk around in them flexing and getting that omfit moving while it's most mobile. My zipfits were cooked in the same oven thing the heat mouldable shells get put in, to give you an idea of temperature - seemed great, and you could feel the pressure evening out around your foot as you walked about and flexed and the liner adapted.

Note that for any minor shell remould after that like i had for my ankle bones i had pads put on the OUTSIDE of the liner for a final shell remould.

 

[Comish]

I just got a pair of the original Gara's, no sidewinder or leather. Had zipfit's 25+ years ago when they were silicone injected and have been thinking of going back to them for a while. I have a size 9 foot that goes in a 25 Dobermann WC 130 shell. Perfect shell fit for my chicken legs.

Used the Noodler technique and after 3 or 4 half days of skiing, they are feeling pretty awesome. Still a bit tight, cutting off a bit of circulation making the toes cold, but each day is getting better. Have only used the heated boot bag on the liners each morning, no oven. I'm sure the oven would help speed up my process, but with 3 kids I gotta be efficient First day wasn't sure I was even going to get the shells closed the gap was so large. Luckily it was warm that first day so not worried on the toes. It got cold last weekend though and they survived. We aren't talking anything brutal or painful, just very tight and therefore crimping the circulation.

Think this is going to be the perfect setup for me. Super comfortable, supportive, but gives the toes room to splay and pressure my forefoot. Pretty Psyched!

 

[Brad J]

Nice, welcome back into the club

 

[RSTuthill]

Well, I jumped into the abyss and ordered the WC Zipfits in 28.5 from Boot Pro in Ludlow, VT, as I have been dealing with a bit of liner packing and heel lift on my OEM liners. Shells will be my three year old Head Raptor 140 RS's (96 mm last). Gonna still use my Lenz socks which are pretty thick by my standards. With bare feet in the shells all the way forward and knees fully flexed, I can barely get one finger between the heel and shell. Probably cannot with the socks on. So they are appropriately tight, but not so tight that I lose toe nails like my last pair of Nordica plug 150 Aggressors.

This is a bit of a leap of faith for me as I had them shipped rather than driving up to Ludlow from Central CT. My only concern is that the WC may have too much cork material in them. But if I need help in fitting, I can always take them up to Ludlow on a non-holiday week (e.g. not this week) for a little help from the shop. They told me no charge for the liner processing.

Did I screw up by not trying to find the Gara's somewhere else (Boot Pro doesn't have them)? I figure I can always remove cork if needed. But, if I cannot close the shell, this is gonna be awkward. My feet are pretty standard size though, so I have hope.

 

[Brad J]

IMO use the fitting instructions on web sight and you should have no issues. They will have a lot of pressure at first but after 2 days of skiing you should be all set

 

[RSTuthill]

I should also mention that Boot Pro says that they use a little bit of heat directly on the liners too. I interpreted that to mean a hair drier or a very short period of time in the oven. I think that a heated boot bag would take too long for in store use.

 

[coops]

Just a thought.. but if you're buying/renting any other gear from a shop on/near the slopes... maybe you could politely ask if they could 'throw' your zipfits in their shell heater box for 10 mins for you.

You can put them on and do up the boots and give them a good walk and flex around in the shop before you head out on the slopes. You don't need any assistance or fitter's time - just a spare heat box for 10 mins...

 

[RSTuthill]

Well, I jumped into the abyss and ordered the WC Zipfits in 28.5 from Boot Pro in Ludlow, VT, as I have been dealing with a bit of liner packing and heel lift on my OEM liners. Shells will be my three year old Head Raptor 140 RS's (96 mm last). Gonna still use my Lenz socks which are pretty thick by my standards. With bare feet in the shells all the way forward and knees fully flexed, I can barely get one finger between the heel and shell. Probably cannot with the socks on. So they are appropriately tight, but not so tight that I lose toe nails like my last pair of Nordica plug 150 Aggressors.

This is a bit of a leap of faith for me as I had them shipped rather than driving up to Ludlow from Central CT. My only concern is that the WC may have too much cork material in them. But if I need help in fitting, I can always take them up to Ludlow on a non-holiday week (e.g. not this week) for a little help from the shop. They told me no charge for the liner processing.

Did I screw up by not trying to find the Gara's somewhere else (Boot Pro doesn't have them)? I figure I can always remove cork if needed. But, if I cannot close the shell, this is gonna be awkward. My feet are pretty standard size though, so I have hope.

Nothing major to report. No way that I was gonna get a WC Zipfit in a Head Raptor 140 with so little room in that sizing. So I baked the shells at 125 F for a few minutes and the liners went right in. I should also note that I sprayed the middle to front foot of the zep and the toe and heel of the liner sole with silicone lube as well. I did a couple more thermal cycles heating the liners as well as the shells. Will ski them for a couple hours tomorrow. They are not as comfy as the OEM liner yet, but the encasement of the feet is awesome. They also seem to stiffen the boot significantly.

 

[RSTuthill]

Nothing major to report. No way that I was gonna get a WC Zipfit in a Head Raptor 140 with so little room in that sizing. So I baked the shells at 125 F for a few minutes and the liners went right in. I should also note that I sprayed the middle to front foot of the zep and the toe and heel of the liner sole with silicone lube as well. I did a couple more thermal cycles heating the liners as well as the shells. Will ski them for a couple hours tomorrow. They are not as comfy as the OEM liner yet, but the encasement of the feet is awesome. They also seem to stiffen the boot significantly.

I might add one last thing. Watching the evening news I tried inserting the feet with liners on into the shell in the cold condition. These particular shells do not permit the foot/liners simply to go straight into the shells. There is a techique, though. If you turn the heel to the inside and put the toe in sideways, the Red Sea parts and the feet with liners on slip into the shells easily. I attribute the baking of the shells to that as my OEM liners would never go in that easily with the same technique.

 

[Noodler]

Bumping this thread for my new "alternative" heating method for fitting your ZipFits...

Decided to take advantage of the fire.

This is an old WC model that I stuck in my new Fischer Curv 130 shells.

I have a new Gara that's going in my Nordica GP 140 shells, but I probably won't use the fireplace for that job.

 

[HardDaysNight]

...new Fischer Curv 130 shells.

...my Nordica GP 140 shells

By recollection you also have Head Raptor B2 RDs and a couple others at least. I’m intrigued. Do you use these different boots for different types of skiing/disciplines? Or do you just like trying new stuff? I’m always so pleased to find one pair that I really like and can’t imagine having to figure out multiple boots. Not being at all critical, just interested.