Where in the Boot to Balance?

[Tim Hodgson]

{W]ith that approach you should acknowledge the front of the heel as a co-conspirator with the BoF for a truly dynamic range of balance.

How, what, where and why?
In what type of turn?
In what part(s) of the turn?

 

[Mike King]

How, what, where and why?
In what type of turn?
In what part(s) of the turn?

I've become very interested in Tom Gellie's take on most anything in skiing:

Mastering the short turn - Fore and aft lesson 1 - Aug 2019

Mastering the short turn - Fore and aft lesson

bigpictureskiing.com

Mike

 

[Scruffy]

Oh, the sarcasm....

The problem with LeMaster's example is that the linebacker stance he is referencing is a static stance in preparation for an upcoming, highly dynamic locomotion situation. This is not what a skier has to deal with.

Of course. But the upcoming situation, if you're moving on skis downhill, is highly dynamic. The athletic stance, which most people are at least somewhat familiar with, is an image/analogy, that instructors use with new skiers to get them to visualize a stance where ankles, knees, hips are slightly flexed, with slightly rounded shoulders. Many instructors use this analogy, even with on an snow demonstration pushing skiers in a tall stance vs athletic stance. As an instructor, I'm sure you've run across this?

He is right that the key is to tactically invoke the flex complex (ankles, knees and hips) in the pursuit of COM to ski management. Your "Somewhere between the balls of your feet and the back of your arch" point is a common sense view but with that approach you should acknowledge the front of the heel as a co-conspirator with the BoF for a truly dynamic range of balance.

Of course. Did I say otherwise? If you've read the top of that post before I quoted LeMaster, I talked about moving my COM towards heel at bottom of a carved turn. <== please don't take that to mean that's my only view on the heel in skiing or that every turn is exactly executed then same way.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I'm enjoying the discussion.
There sure are differences of opinion -- and experience.
Think I'll have some more popcorn.

 

[JESinstr]

How, what, where and why?
In what type of turn?
In what part(s) of the turn?

I created the below diagram and have posted it several times in the past.

What a skier needs to realize is that pressure (force) is not only generated by one's weight but by potentially substantial turning force coming upwards from the tip to the tail of the ski. To adopt a mantra that one should try and manage the wide range of upward force from a single point of foot to boot contact seems short sighted IMO. Instead, the above portrays a dual contact approach with a single point of feeling, that being tension in the arch of the foot.

Whether I am making end to end carved turns or turns where I employ a rotary entry, I have the goal of being centered over the arch at the apex. From there, based on slope and speed, adjustments can be dynamically made.

 

[JESinstr]

Of course. But the upcoming situation, if you're moving on skis downhill, is highly dynamic. The athletic stance, which most people are at least somewhat familiar with, is an image/analogy, that instructors use with new skiers to get them to visualize a stance where ankles, knees, hips are slightly flexed, with slightly rounded shoulders. Many instructors use this analogy, even with on an snow demonstration pushing skiers in a tall stance vs athletic stance. As an instructor, I'm sure you've run across this?

With all due respect, do you realize what you wrote? Skiing is NOT an upcoming situation it is constantly and totally dynamic (on the move) in nature.

Yeah, I used to be part of that contingent that tried to teach the athletic "Ready" position but after seeing many of my students land on their butts from this position, I have changed to focus on teaching centered balance using the flex complex and tension in key areas (Thanks Ron Kipp) to to retrain the brain to foot dynamic balance paradigm.

 

[Scruffy]

With all due respect, do you realize what you wrote? Skiing is NOT an upcoming situation it is constantly and totally dynamic (on the move) in nature.

Yeah, I used to be part of that contingent that tried to teach the athletic "Ready" position but after seeing many of my students land on their butts from this position, I have changed to focus on teaching centered balance using the flex complex and tension in key areas (Thanks Ron Kipp) to to retrain the brain to foot dynamic balance paradigm.

Sorry, I was just playing off your words in your post before that. Look, I'am basically in agreement about a lot of what you are saying. And, I normally like your posts in these type of threads. For some reason today, we are talking past one another and not comprehending what the other is eluding to.

I view the neutral athletic stance as the flex complex with tension in key areas. Serious questions: How is it different? and how are your students landing on their butts from the athletic stance?

 

[JESinstr]

Sorry, I was just playing off your words in your post before that. Look, I'am basically in agreement about a lot of what you are saying. And, I normally like your posts in these type of threads. For some reason today, we are talking past one another and not comprehending what the other is eluding to.

I view the neutral athletic stance as the flex complex with tension in key areas. Serious questions: How is it different? and how are your students landing on their butts from the athletic stance?

Well in fairness they exit the athletic position out of loss of control and ensuing fear and extend to a heel based stance. It is ironic that they do this because getting lower in a more athletic position would be the right safety move but they go instead to the stance they normally use when standing still. The skis move out from underneath and wamo! But this is most likely to happen when we teach the stance vs teaching a new way to focus balance and use the attributes of the athletic stance and tension to help accomplish it.

So it is not the stance but the new balance paradigm that needs the focus IMO. And this is inline with a bottoms up approach to skiing.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Mike King]

Well in fairness they exit the athletic position out of loss of control and ensuing fear and extend to a heel based stance. It is ironic that they do this because getting lower in a more athletic position would be the right safety move but they go instead to the stance they normally use when standing still. The skis move out from underneath and wamo! But this is most likely to happen when we teach the stance vs teaching a new way to focus balance and use the attributes of the athletic stance and tension to help accomplish it.

So it is not the stance but the new balance paradigm that needs the focus IMO. And this is inline with a bottoms up approach to skiing.

Sorry for the confusion.

I still think the issue is the tradeoff between mobility and stability. In skiing, with the magnitude and variability of forces we manage, stability is at a premium. What does it mean to be hyper mobile only to be thrown into an unbalanced position where recovery is near impossible for mere mortals? While we still need mobility, we need a bias toward stability. And the position of staying within the bounds of the big tripod formed by the arches of the foot is the place of stability while still providing access to mobility.

That being said, should we stand in one spot on the base of the foot? Absolutely not. We will be always manipulating pressure on the skis both laterally as well as along the length of the skis. While there may be times when we are skiing from the center of the skis, there are also times when we will prefer to work the ski along it's length,.

Mike