Where Does/Should Separation Happen?

[James]

Exaclty, because
Counter = twisting body around femur head and above
Hip Dumping = twisting the body towards the outside around subtalar joint
Foot tipping = twisting the foot around subtalar joint the opposite direction compared to hip dumping

If you tip correctly you cannot dump the hip.

Some would say that hip dumping involves countering the hip too much and sitting down too much, but I'd rather call those things excessive counter and too flexed in order not to mix the problems.

PMTS does a lot of great things, but IMO some of the TFR demos have hip dumping in them.

Excellent summation.
I think if one is deeply flexed it's possible to dump the hip and counter rotate.

 

[Doby Man]

What fundamental movements would people here coach to produce a carved turn as opposed to steered turn?

zenny

Exaclty, because
Counter = twisting body around femur head and above
Hip Dumping = twisting the body towards the outside around subtalar joint
Foot tipping = twisting the foot around subtalar joint the opposite direction compared to hip dumping

If you tip correctly you cannot dump the hip.

Some would say that hip dumping involves countering the hip too much and sitting down too much, but I'd rather call those things excessive counter and too flexed in order not to mix the problems.

PMTS does a lot of great things, but IMO some of the TFR demos have hip dumping in them.

The only fundamental that really changes is the edging itself that goes from a blend of tipping the ski and rotary infused edging to strictly tipping. Flexion, extension, inclination, angulation, rotary (hips), fore/aft pressure control, left right pressure distribution and pole plant may not see much more change from choosing between rotary edging and strict tipping than from other variables such as terrain and line choice. An isolation of the correct fundamental and good progression breakdown from LF.

Re: Hip dumping. I don’t think that hip dumping is what some are alluding to here. Hip dumping isn’t as much about the mechanics of the turn as it is about the timing. The “dumping” is about movement consolidation (chronological) as the term suggests in its other uses. When skiers facilitate all their flexion, rotation and angulation in turn phase one, they drop into their turn “position” very quickly and have nowhere else to go until they complete the turn. This creates a flat spot in their aesthetics but also a flat spot in what should be a more dynamic edge and pressure engagement that progresses through the entirety of the turn. Therefore, while I do agree there are subsequent mechanical implications precipitated by getting the timing wrong AKA: hip dumping, they are not necessarily movements in the wrong direction. Therefore I would also submit that hip dumping is not something that can be determined from a still and, instead, a video or live observation.

While I believe a skier can be tipping their feet while hip dumping using the same incorrect timing, it is not typical because the developmental stage of good footwork and ankle tipping tends to follow the developmental stage of good timing of upper body movements in the turn. When footwork and ankle tipping takes over the timing from hip flexion (the PMTS way) the timing is much better managed. The ankle that is much smaller and closer to the the ski than the hip provides much quicker and more accurate timing than does hip flexion. For me at least, hip flexion is not a “timed” movement but rather a passive output from tipping “into the hill” rather than an active input to steering/tipping the ski. When the ground initiates and powers the flexion for the skier, the timing is perfect and the muscular effort is substantially reduced. I think that pmts tries to walk a fine programmatic line between flex to release, which is what the system is practically founded on, and ankle tipping which is skiing from the feet and represents a flow of kinesthesis in the opposite opposite direction. We can only ski from the “feet up” or “hips down” and can only use one as your source of timing. Trying to dance in the middle ground between the two is a recipe for failure.

Kinetic flow: Feet/ankles to skis - skis to ground - ground back to skis - skis to body which is the ground force reaction we can use to generate full body flexion that is powered by the turn itself. Because ski to snow interaction, its input and output, create the forces we seek, it is these forces are the final and ultimate medium between the skier and the ground. These forces are ultimately controlled by three simple inputs to the ski: tipping, fore/aft pressure control and left right pressure distribution. The ski does not and will not receive nor respond to any other input in a carving context (add only rotary in a skidding context). Therefore, any directive that we impose on our body needs to be able to be traced to one or more of the three carving inputs we give to the ski. Whatever we do with our bodies will never be anything other than secondary to what we do to the ski. Any movement, or suggestion thereof, that cannot be traced to the ski's input is wasted movement and a very weak suggestion, the bane of all instruction that does not lead full circle, a complete kinetic turn cycle, to the ski and back.

 

[Zentune]

Good post doby, not sure I fully agree regarding hip dumping? Yes, it’s certainly a timing thing (putting “it” in all at once) and, because of that timing issue, the femur/lower leg (even the pelvis to a degree) can twist around the STJ in somewhat a different direction...it’s partly related to the direction the feet are pointing to start a turn methinks...

Perhaps we need a hip dump thread...?

zenny

 

[razie]

Excellent summation.
I think if one is deeply flexed it's possible to dump the hip and counter rotate.

I would say yah, sure it's possible - in fact likely encouraged by the deep flexion if the skier can't untip the old outside ski / tip the new inside ski (i.e. release properly). It would be I guess interesting to look at what they call "com release", which I think would look like an early hip dump...

Hip dumping is associated with all those, but in my mind, it's a matter of turn mechanics: does the skier start edging from the feet or leads with the hip - it makes a big difference. If they start with the hip, they will never tip, but often, as the angles build, even with great skiers, we'll see something that looks like hip dumping but I would not call hip dumping, especially in GS for instance.

 

[Doby Man]

Good post doby, not sure I fully agree regarding hip dumping? Yes, it’s certainly a timing thing (putting “it” in all at once) and, because of that timing issue, the femur/lower leg (even the pelvis to a degree) can twist around the STJ in somewhat a different direction...it’s partly related to the direction the feet are pointing to start a turn methinks...
Perhaps we need a hip dump thread...?
zenny

I think I see what you mean and cannot disagree per se. With all the variables that go into a two person discussion of an alpine technique concept, agreeing by 51% is a victory - as if we were in Congress. My rationale is that if all the movements were correct but only the timing were adjusted for hip dumping, then we’d have hip dumping. So, we can see hip dumping in just about any mechanical status/condition we are able to produce and regardless of the direction of the feet. That said, the state of hip dump timing brings with it other issues such as the bottom out phase of hip dumping where the hips do tend to continue rotation to the state of being over countered and, granted, a mechanical issue and something initiated and exacerbated by the results of hip dump timing. There’s nowhere for your CoM to go after you dump it and, consequently, there is no more momentum to carry into the next turn. Counter action/counter rotation/counter are good in small doses, but too much ruins the entire turn causing the loss of dynamic pressure over the ski before the end of the turn and thus the end of a good turn set. This is why the concept of “steering into counter” is so helpful to some who are, instead, using the upper body for their frame of reference regarding rotary. What a mess! The feet will always be the primary frame of reference for those work the ski from the foot. The further away from the ski a skier's primary focus is, the longer, slower and more complicated is the pathway of kinetic directive.

Because the failure of good timing often precipitates bad mechanics, it may be the timing we should look at rather than the direct mechanics themselves. Because alpine technique is so highly systemic, there are very few “direct fixes” we can make such as directly switching out one mechanical input for another. If the skier is made out of Legos, then that may help. But, like medicine compared to surgery, the knife has its limitations.

A typical hip dumping parameter is that they can only be performed in large/er radius turns because there is no time or space to dump a hip and recover from it within a short radius, well carved turn. Skiers that hip dump cannot perform short radius edge lock turns. Even though they are performing their flexion/rotation/angulation very quickly, too quickly, they bottom out with over counteracting and counterbalancing in the remaining “empty space” of what remains in the turn which is slow and laborious to get up and out of. And, yes, mechanically, like standing in mud at the starting line. One way for an individual to train out their hip dumping in a positive way is to learn to carve short/shorter edge locked turns simply because short carved turns and hip dumping are mutually exclusive of one another. That is if they can’t look at the logistics of time and space and adjust their timing to spread their movement throughout the space of the entire turn cycle. Sort of as if they were training Tai Chi.

How about these for a hip dumping thread title?:

“Hip Dumping: Not as “hip” as you think”

“Hip Dumping: Good for the couch - bad for the skis”

“Hip Dumping: Nothing you will find in a Kamasutra tip guide”

“Those Hippy Dumpsters!: Why both hippies and dumpsters smell bad”

“Hip dumping: Don’t hurt Santa’s lap unless you want a bad turn for Christmas”

“What is hip dumping and why are you doing it? What is the matter with you anyway?“

“When has the term “dump” ever cannoted anything good?: trash/garbage, a bad relationship, disposal of just about anything, something you flush down the toilet, a crappy house, erasing incriminating data and, of course, poor skiing”