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Where Does/Should Separation Happen?

Zentune

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Yup. That’s not the point necessarily, although it’s certainly *part of the point. ;-)

zenny
 

Zentune

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What fundamental movements would people here coach to produce a carved turn as opposed to steered turn?

zenny
 

Chris V.

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[F]emur rotation is an active input for knee angulation and a passive output from the ski in an edge locked turn.

All instructors should have that tatooed on their forearms.

Now, TECHNICALLY there may be no difference between "active" and "passive." Either way, bones need to move in the joints at certain rates and in certain directions, and the muscles attached to those bones need to flex or relax at the appropriate times, amounts, and rates. But the skier must recognize that in addition to the internal forces being applied to his skeleton from his own muscles, there are external forces being applied. These prominently include forces coming from the skis. If the skis are turning, because of their performance characteristics and because they are engaged in the snow, they apply forces that tend to turn the skier's legs. The skier can resist these forces, or can accept the input and allow the leg turning to happen--making fine adjustments to muscular engagement to accommodate the input. Too often, skiers resist when they should cooperate with the input, or they are active in counterproductive ways.

I always learn a lot from novices. They give muscular input to their skiing in ways more advanced skiers would never think of doing. I get to see the results. Those results carry many lessons with them. One of my favorite exercises with novices is to have them do clean railroad track traverses, and then start doing J turns from a very gentle descent in a perfectly parallel stance. Starting from a straight run, the students only need to do one thing--rotate the femurs slightly into the hill. They don't need to TRY to turn. They SHOULDN'T try to turn. A turn just happens, because that's what skis with sidecuts do. Students nearly always try to do too much. They end up turning their feet into the hill, with rotation all below the knees. Wrong. No edge lock, tips start pointing the wrong direction. The students get skidded, abrupt turns. Or they feel the force build under the outside ski, don't like it, and let go of the femur rotation. Wrong. Skis go flat, they lose the edge lock, and the skis don't turn. Or they lean into the hill, lose the engagement of the ski tips, and very likely fall over. But with practice, they usually get it. It's all there in that one simple drill--active input and passive output.
 
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Fishbowl

Fishbowl

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Starting from a straight run, the students only need to do one thing--rotate the femurs slightly into the hill.

Exactly how do you "only" rotate your femurs, what is the exact instruction to the student?

I'm not asking to be contradictory, but because I'm interested and would like to know how.
 

Jamt

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Knee edging is movement of the knee laterally. Since the Knee cannot move that way the movement happens primarily in the subtalar joint in the ankle and in the hip joint.
You can focus on tipping the feet or moving the knee or rotating the femur.
Of these my opinion is that tipping the feet is by far the best que, and rotating the femurs the worst. Moving the knee comes somewhere between.
How you move the femur is quite complex, you need to rotate it to flex the inside leg. You need to rotate it to counter. You need to rotate it to rotate the ski, you need to rotate it to hip angulate. How can you reliably separate the femur rotation that edges the ski from all these movements? Simple, focus on the foot tipping instead.
Focusing on femur rotation can easily lead to a passive ankle joint, which is very bad for balance and edge hold.

Just to get the notion that femur rotation is the primary mechanism to edge the ski out of peoples heads. Here is a picture of what typically happens in a good SL type turn. @Zentune is right when he talked about de-edging the ski. That is the biggest movement of the knee angulation.
Off course you could angulate more with the knee, but the thing is that in general you don't want to in a high performance turn. The knee needs to be just inside the force line, otherwise the lateral bending moment in the knee would be anatomically bad. How do you find that amount? With proper aligned boots and foot tipping.

Lateral edging actions.PNG
 

Chris V.

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Exactly how do you "only" rotate your femurs, what is the exact instruction to the student?

I just tell them that, and show them. Or tell them to point their knees into the hill while keeping their hips over their feet. The "only" part means not moving the hips or the feet. Students do have to counterbalance with the upper body, or they'll fall over. Which some do, the first time.

It's the same move with which students should already be familiar from stopping themselves from slipping while standing sideways on a slope, and from sidestepping. The only change is that students now need to do the same thing while sliding forward. Not hard at all, but at first some students find the feeling of it VERY foreign to anything they've done before in their other activities.

Jamt describes it correctly. The rotation in the hip socket is matched by rotation below the knee that takes place primarily in the subtalar joint. However, I disagree on the main focus being tipping the feet, because if given only this instruction students tend to do it by dumping the hips into the hill, with no rotation in the subtalar joint, so the the hip joints, knees, and feet remain in line. In the end, it doesn't matter how you get the student to make the correct movement. After making it once, the student knows what the movement feels like, and can repeat it.

To create knee angulation, the foot has to turn in the subtalar joint, which technically speaking isn't the same as the ankle joint, though people often call it part of the ankle. The "ankle" has to be active at least in that way, or the move is impossible. I like to do other exercises that include a focus on control of the subtalar joint, for example straight runs going smoothly into and out of a wedge, back and forth. The lesson, as I explain it to students, is to practice muscular control to keep the skis pointing where they want them, with no wobbling. When the skis are parallel, they need to be REALLY parallel. We all have somewhat different methods. Those are mine.

Very interesting graph from jamt. In high performance turns, I don't suppose it's surprising that hip angulation has greater potential for creating a high degree of edging than does knee angulation. It's a larger movement. But in less intense skiing situations, don't we want students to look to knee angulation first, both in their development as skiers and in starting and ending individual turns?

I do wonder about all the little wiggles in the colored lines.
 

Smear

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Knee edging is movement of the knee laterally. Since the Knee cannot move that way the movement happens primarily in the subtalar joint in the ankle and in the hip joint.
You can focus on tipping the feet or moving the knee or rotating the femur.
Of these my opinion is that tipping the feet is by far the best que, and rotating the femurs the worst. Moving the knee comes somewhere between.
How you move the femur is quite complex, you need to rotate it to flex the inside leg. You need to rotate it to counter. You need to rotate it to rotate the ski, you need to rotate it to hip angulate. How can you reliably separate the femur rotation that edges the ski from all these movements? Simple, focus on the foot tipping instead.
Focusing on femur rotation can easily lead to a passive ankle joint, which is very bad for balance and edge hold.

I like the tipping the feet cues. There Is no question that this rotates the femur and moves the knee and creates knee angulation. The effect is not primarily ankle angulation. But when focusing on the tipping the feet then the knee angulation stops at a reasonable range and the ankle is active. When I focus on knee angulation by femur rotation then there is no stop to the ROM and I get into weak and vulnerable positions. Can still be OK for a ski not bearing a high load.

When @Mike King is talking about femur rotation, to my reading he is talking about the femur rotation that makes separation and counter happen and not the type of femur rotation that makes excessive knee angulation happen, breaks the ski out of it's carve or turn the outside ski into a wedge. Not having free/active enough femurs in the hip lead to skiing without counter or separation, or have the separation occur in other joints leading to less stable positions. Or not shaping the turns as actively as on can in conditions where the ski is not locked. Using less desirable motions for rotational force needs.

Going from OK separation to excellent and proactive separation. How to find cues that provides the benefits without the disadvantages? Exercises? Pivot slips? I think you are on the right track separating it from the edging cues.

I do wonder about all the little wiggles in the colored lines.

The solid line is a average of many turns provided by many skiers. The round dots is a quantification for a single representative turn, and it has a wavy pattern with the wiggles. The interpretation is that knee angulation is used for minor adjustments/balance during the turn. Makes sense since the joint is close to the surface and fast to move.Those adjustments are not visible on the average line. Hard to see but I think the average line is pretty smooth.

To me it also make a case of not cueing maxing on outside ski tipping throughout the turn. Then there is no ROM for adjustment. I like focusing on max inside ski tipping.

In the figure most of the hip angulation occurs late in the turn, and at the same time there is sharply decreasing and eventually negative knee angulation. To me that speaks to the role of hip angulation as a way of moving into the next turn and not primarily a move to creating edging. If turning down a ski ski slope without a need for going into the next turn, like if the ski hill was formed like the helix of a spring coil, then I don't think we would use a lot of hip angulation. Would probably stay at the amount used at 40% turn cycle ;)
.
 

razie

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Knee edging is movement of the knee laterally. Since the Knee cannot move that way the movement happens primarily in the subtalar joint in the ankle and in the hip joint.
You can focus on tipping the feet or moving the knee or rotating the femur.
Of these my opinion is that tipping the feet is by far the best que, and rotating the femurs the worst. Moving the knee comes somewhere between.
How you move the femur is quite complex, you need to rotate it to flex the inside leg. You need to rotate it to counter. You need to rotate it to rotate the ski, you need to rotate it to hip angulate. How can you reliably separate the femur rotation that edges the ski from all these movements? Simple, focus on the foot tipping instead.
Focusing on femur rotation can easily lead to a passive ankle joint, which is very bad for balance and edge hold.

Just to get the notion that femur rotation is the primary mechanism to edge the ski out of peoples heads. Here is a picture of what typically happens in a good SL type turn. @Zentune is right when he talked about de-edging the ski. That is the biggest movement of the knee angulation.
Off course you could angulate more with the knee, but the thing is that in general you don't want to in a high performance turn. The knee needs to be just inside the force line, otherwise the lateral bending moment in the knee would be anatomically bad. How do you find that amount? With proper aligned boots and foot tipping.

View attachment 37523

This should be a sticky.

Doby Man said:
[F]emur rotation is an active input for knee angulation and a passive output from the ski in an edge locked turn.

:thumb:
 
Last edited:

LiquidFeet

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... because of the polygon of sustentation extended with the pole, he's not inclining ....

I'd like to thank James for bringing that term back into my consciousness. I encountered it long ago in my undergraduate drawing classes, but had totally forgotten it. You never know what someone's going to say in a ski forum.
 

LiquidFeet

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What fundamental movements would people here coach to produce a carved turn as opposed to steered turn?...

Simply stated question. Simply stated answer...
I teach them one fundamental movement: ankle-tip the skis, without rotating the skis.
Other fundamental stuff is necessary, but some of that arises on its own when they get this to work.

Breaking that down:

Learn to tip the skis with the ankles, without rotating the skis.
Learn that the skis will turn without any rotation.

1. Prepare to do a short straight run, on very gentle pitch terrain with a flat run-out, skis pointed downhill.
2. Lock eyes on a tree at the bottom of the hill, where the skis are pointed. Keep them locked on this tree the whole time.
3. Tip skis from the ankles, both feet together, left then right, repeat, until coasting to a stop. (Practice this ankle-tipping static before pushing off).
4. Have student verbally describe what the skis do (they turn themselves).

Learn to tip the skis in order to head toward the side of the trail, without rotating them.
Do this in a half turn, mimicking the end of a turn.

5. On same gentle terrain, start with skis pointed down the hill, locking eyes on same tree downhill.
6. Push off straight downhill, tip ankles once uphill, and WAIT. Keep eyes locked on that tree, down the hill.
7. Skis should take skier across the hill, coasting to a stop; skier will still be looking down the hill at that tree down there.
8. Repeat. Push off downhill, tip ankles uphill with goal of coasting to a stop uphill. Repeat with increasing tipping. See where the skis take you.

Learn to tip skis downhill to start a turn, without rotating the skis.
This is scary from a traverse; skiers will typically resort to a pivot. To minimize the fear factor, do it from a straight run, not from a traverse.
9. On same gentle terrain with a flat run-out, prepare to do #3 above.
10. Lock eyes on a tree straight down the hill, and keep eyes locked on that same tree for the whole exercise. This is critical (see notes below).
11. Different this time: HOLD each ankle-tip to allow skis to head across the hill farther - before ankle-tipping the other way.
12. Focus on HOLD and WAIT. Focus on doing nothing else (do not rotate the skis). Keep eyes locked on that tree down there.
13. Repeat, widening the corridor of the straight run. Eventually it should be wide enough to no longer call it a straight run.
14. Over time, learn to complete these turns with skis pointing across the hill, then ankle-tip skis downhill to initiate the new turn.

Overall goals:
--Purge the pivot.
--Replace it with ankle-tipping.
--Feel the skis turn in response to tipping.
--Progressively morph barely-there fall-line linked turns to successively wider turns.
--Recognize that completed turns slow the downhill travel speed.
--Take these completed turns to terrain with progressively more pitch once turn completion is happening.

Notes on the other stuff necessary to make ankle-tipping effective:
--Locking eyes on a tree straight ahead helps the skier to avoid pivoting the skis.
--Self-coaching (trial-and-error) should help the skier to stay balanced with angulation, but this doesn't always happen, especially in the presence of fear.
--Common problems: unconsciously rotating the skis from deeply embedded habit, overly wide or tall boots disallowing transfer of foot tipping to boot tipping, tipping the whole body instead of the ankles, turning the hips and/or the shoulders to supplement the ankle-tipping, falling over because the upper body leans to the inside of the turn, jerky instead of smooth body movements. The instructor will need to address these issues as they arise. If skier is prohibitively aft, try putting both hands behind the back, touching each other. Poles can be limply dragged behind, or delete poles altogether.
 
Last edited:

James

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Knee edging is movement of the knee laterally. Since the Knee cannot move that way the movement happens primarily in the subtalar joint in the ankle and in the hip joint.
You can focus on tipping the feet or moving the knee or rotating the femur.
Of these my opinion is that tipping the feet is by far the best que, and rotating the femurs the worst. Moving the knee comes somewhere between.
How you move the femur is quite complex, you need to rotate it to flex the inside leg. You need to rotate it to counter. You need to rotate it to rotate the ski, you need to rotate it to hip angulate. How can you reliably separate the femur rotation that edges the ski from all these movements? Simple, focus on the foot tipping instead.
Focusing on femur rotation can easily lead to a passive ankle joint, which is very bad for balance and edge hold.

Just to get the notion that femur rotation is the primary mechanism to edge the ski out of peoples heads. Here is a picture of what typically happens in a good SL type turn. @Zentune is right when he talked about de-edging the ski. That is the biggest movement of the knee angulation.
Off course you could angulate more with the knee, but the thing is that in general you don't want to in a high performance turn. The knee needs to be just inside the force line, otherwise the lateral bending moment in the knee would be anatomically bad. How do you find that amount? With proper aligned boots and foot tipping.

View attachment 37523

image.png
I think that may illustrate an issue with Reid's measuring of knee angulation and his coordinate system. It's not what we commonly associate with it. He's measuring the offset between the knee and the hip. It maxes out at 5 degrees? Then the maximum is after the gate, finishing the turn/starting the new, but it's a negative value. So, the knee is now more to the outside of the turn than the hip, towards the new turn. Well, that would indicate femur rotation towards the new turn, no?
But, still trying to wrap my head around the coordinate system.


image.png

Reid Thesis. Measuring Definitions

image.png

Reid Thesis Knee Angulation
Note the large negative value. So, at transition, there's like -12 deg of knee angulation, yet at max in the turn there's less than 5deg positive.

image.jpeg

I think most would consider that a lot of knee angulation. But, it's only about 5 degrees in the Reid measurement system. The most disappointing thing about the Reid phd thesis is there's no photos of the turns. All those digital images taken and we never get to see them? Odd. So, we can't compare his values with the images we are used to.

**If one gets anything out of this thread it should be where the actual anatomical hip is versus what people think of as "the hip".**

One interesting thing in Reid's images is a reminder of how inside the "hip" as it's commonly used the anatomical hip is. Commonly, it seems to be we think of the hips as very near the outside of the body. It's pretty far in. Shockingly far in when you see it marked on the speed suit of the skier.

image.jpeg

Reid
The hip is at a large angle to the femur. It is not a ball merely at the end of the femur but extends medially, towards the inside of the body.

hip-illustration.jpg

Hosptal for Special Surgery
https://www.hss.edu/conditions_femo...guide-to-hip-mobility-and-hip-arthroscopy.asp

smith-nephew-hipanatomy.jpg

https://bonesmart.org/hip/about-the-hip-joint/


image.jpeg

Reid
These dots represent the measurement points for the hip. Look at the ones from the back and the front. Shockingly close together and far in from what we commonly refer to as "the hips".

Images taken from Reid phd thesis Appendices:
https://brage.bibsys.no/xmlui/handle/11250/171325
Originally posted by Jamt in the Inclination Angulation thread.
Reid phD thesis is downloadable from here : https://brage.bibsys.no/xmlui/handle/11250/171325
 
Last edited:

Rod9301

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View attachment 37534 I think that may illustrate an issue with Reid's measuring of knee angulation and his coordinate system. It's not what we commonly associate with it. He's measuring the offset between the knee and the hip. It maxes out at 5 degrees? Then the maximum is after the gate, finishing the turn/starting the new, but it's a negative value. So, the knee is now more to the outside of the turn than the hip, towards the new turn. Well, that would indicate femur rotation towards the new turn, no?
But, still trying to wrap my head around the coordinate system.


View attachment 37535
Reid Thesis. Measuring Definitions

View attachment 37536
Reid Thesis Knee Angulation
Note the large negative value. So, at transition, there's like -12 deg of knee angulation, yet at max in the turn there's less than 5deg positive.

View attachment 37541
I think most would consider that a lot of knee angulation. But, it's only about 5 degrees in the Reid measurement system. The most disappointing thing about the Reid phd thesis is there's no photos of the turns. All those digital images taken and we never get to see them? Odd. So, we can't compare his values with the images we are used to.

**If one gets anything out of this thread it should be where the actual anatomical hip is versus what people think of as "the hip".**

One interesting thing in Reid's images is a reminder of how inside the "hip" as it's commonly used the anatomical hip is. Commonly, it seems to be we think of the hips as very near the outside of the body. It's pretty far in. Shockingly far in when you see it marked on the speed suit of the skier.

View attachment 37551
Reid
The hip is at a large angle to the femur. It is not a ball merely at the end of the femur but extends medially, towards the inside of the body.

hip-illustration.jpg

Hosptal for Special Surgery
https://www.hss.edu/conditions_femo...guide-to-hip-mobility-and-hip-arthroscopy.asp

smith-nephew-hipanatomy.jpg

https://bonesmart.org/hip/about-the-hip-joint/


View attachment 37550
Reid
These dots represent the measurement points for the hip. Look at the ones from the back and the front. Shockingly close together and far in from what we commonly refer to as "the hips".

Images taken from Reid phd thesis Appendices:
https://brage.bibsys.no/xmlui/handle/11250/171325
Originally posted by Jamt in the Inclination Angulation thread.
In the image of the skier (action of the legs ), i would not call that knee angulation at all, it's flexing with femur rotation.
 

Jamt

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View attachment 37541
I think most would consider that a lot of knee angulation. But, it's only about 5 degrees in the Reid measurement system. The most disappointing thing about the Reid phd thesis is there's no photos of the turns. All those digital images taken and we never get to see them? Odd. So, we can't compare his values with the images we are used to.

**If one gets anything out of this thread it should be where the actual anatomical hip is versus what people think of as "the hip".**

One interesting thing in Reid's images is a reminder of how inside the "hip" as it's commonly used the anatomical hip is. Commonly, it seems to be we think of the hips as very near the outside of the body. It's pretty far in. Shockingly far in when you see it marked on the speed suit of the skier.
I don't think that is a lot more than 5 degrees, if even that. You have to consider that to see it properly you would have to imagine how it would look like if your point of view was straight in front of the ski, and in addition as you mention you'd have to compare it with a line going from the proper hip joint position and the ski.

That the knee angulation is negative towards the end simply implies that the skier is releasing the edges. It could also be viewed as strong inside tipping into the next turn...

About the actual position of the hip joint. This implies that people who think they are skiing with a hip wide stance and don't know about this ski with a too wide stance ...
 

Smear

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I think most would consider that a lot of knee angulation. But, it's only about 5 degrees in the Reid measurement system. The most disappointing thing about the Reid phd thesis is there's no photos of the turns. All those digital images taken and we never get to see them? Odd. So, we can't compare his values with the images we are used to.

I agree that it would be very nice if they had included sample image series ala Lemaster or even video showing a typical 13m or 10m turn of the type quantified. The stretch of ski hill used for quantification runs is the exact same stretch that I used for practice and pretend demos before going to telemark instructor course 12 years ago.Very consistent pitch and straight down the fall line. So at least personally I have a good feeling for the terrain used. :ogcool:
:Teleb:

The closest you to pictures is this stick man.

Figur7_13.jpg


The row with greek letters is: edge angle, inclination, hip angulation and knee angulation.

Agree with @Jamt that the appearance of knee angulation is probably often larger than it looks like because we rarely are looking through an axis along the outside ski.

The negative knee angulation position looks to me like a probable position to get into during completion and transition into the new turn. Not much turning forces going on when the turn radius of he COM is 1.6 km:P
 

markojp

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I disagree with this advice. Edging is caused by rotating the femurs.

Jumping in late and probably half informed, but edging and turning can absolutely happen without femur rotation. We've done this in divisional TD clinics. One can simply shorten one leg and remain absolutely square to the ski's direction of travel ( zero steering angle) and link arc'ed turns. Is it typical or optimal? That's another thread, but imho, we should always re-examine our 'musts' and 'have to's' if we're to improve our versatility on snow, and most importantly, in our heads.

:beercheer:
 

Jamt

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I agree that it would be very nice if they had included sample image series ala Lemaster or even video showing a typical 13m or 10m turn of the type quantified.
That picture is almost better than the real thing, because in the real thing you get different camera angles for the ski in every frame, whereas in this you always get a shot taken straight in front of the outside ski. Camera angles can really fool you into seeing things the wrong way.
Sure the femur rotates a lot, but a major part of that is just because if follows the ski around
 

razie

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I disagree on the main focus being tipping the feet, because if given only this instruction students tend to do it by dumping the hips into the hill, with no rotation in the subtalar joint, so the the hip joints, knees, and feet remain in line.

It depends how you introduce it, those two tend to be completely opposite anyways (foot tipping and hip dumping). Most skiers hip dump because they can't tip.

Also, hip dumping is normally associated to extra-counter and delayed or non-existent tipping, so they wouldn't be square, because it's hard to dump the hips when you're square to the skis, the body is not that flexible laterally.

cheers
 
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Chris V.

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It depends how you introduce it, those two tend to be completely opposite anyways (foot tipping and hip dumping). Most skiers hip dump because they can't tip.

Also, hip dumping is normally associated to extra-counter and delayed or non-existent tipping, so they wouldn't be square, because it's hard to dump the hips when you're square to the skis, the body is not that flexible laterally.

cheers

Well, I believe we're all trying to get students to do the same thing. It's a question of the pedagogical pathway to take them there.

My first efforts don't always work. Then it's time to try something different. I've been known to back up and do a whole PMTS progression to get stubborn students to do two-foot tipping.
 

Jamt

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It depends how you introduce it, those two tend to be completely opposite anyways (foot tipping and hip dumping). Most skiers hip dump because they can't tip.

Also, hip dumping is normally associated to extra-counter and delayed or non-existent tipping, so they wouldn't be square, because it's hard to dump the hips when you're square to the skis, the body is not that flexible laterally.

cheers
Exaclty, because
Counter = twisting body around femur head and above
Hip Dumping = twisting the body towards the outside around subtalar joint
Foot tipping = twisting the foot around subtalar joint the opposite direction compared to hip dumping

If you tip correctly you cannot dump the hip.

Some would say that hip dumping involves countering the hip too much and sitting down too much, but I'd rather call those things excessive counter and too flexed in order not to mix the problems.

PMTS does a lot of great things, but IMO some of the TFR demos have hip dumping in them.
 

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