RichGuo

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In East, I can only practice bump on closed training course( basically ski zipperline) at my home mountain, there is no nature mogul hill, I am beginner bumper. I can manage skiing blue bump run at speed as it goes(not in controlled way), but move to black bump run, I could not stand the speed I finally get. since my tips always on air, I understand that I should pull back feet to keep tips on snow, but when my ski reach the top it's already on air, basically I seems ski from font side to font side of bumps when it's getting steep, how can I do absorption and find place to pull back my feet ?
 

CalG

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Just keep your ski tips and shovels in contact with the snow. That is the RIGHT time to pull back and flex the ankles.

Think of it like this.

When you are in maximum absorption of the bump you are approaching, the ski is laying "uphill" and about perpendicular to your line of travel. You need to extend, flex and tip that ski over the crest while your upper body is catching up and Passing your boots.

Check with Clendenin for the details.
 

Rod9301

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I don't understand how you extend and flex at the same time.

Simple rule:

Tips are in the air when you crest the bump, that's ok, you absorbed the bump. This is when you pull feet back aggressively, using your hamstrings.
 

jack97

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In order to ski a steeper seeded mogul run, you need to use all of your absorption range. Use the blue run to front load the ski as you approach , you start the absorption as you go up the face of the bump, toward a shoulder. Once your near the highest point of the shoulder, that will be your lowest absorption range. After you crest this shoulder, that's when you extend, either pull back the feet or drive the hip over the feet. Mechanically they are the same but IMO, its how you react to mental cues and whether there are unwanted side effects in either mental cue.

Practice this on the blue run before you go on the steeper one. This technique is needed if you only have access to seeded runs. I've been on course where its a single or a double lane, each lane deep rutted. You can't meander nor go to other lines for speed control.
 
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oldschoolskier

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In response to the title of the thread, the problem with the feet could be that you are still eating while skiing bumps.

Put the feed away before the bumps and the feet should do ok. ;):roflmao:


Sorry couldn’t resist, this was to big of an opening.
 

Wilhelmson

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** I have no technical training

Never thought much about it but once you get over the mogul you will feel gravity pulling you down which would be a good time for any subtle adjustment to get your skis back on the snow in preparation for the next series of maneuvers. Unless you're purposefully launching it becomes instinctual to begin the unloading slightly before the crest. Stay loose while keeping your eyes on the line and let the mountain tell you when.
 

Crank

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I have never thought of it as pulling my feet back. I think about making the tips dive back down.

It seems to me that pulling your feet back is just another way of saying keep centered and keep you CM going downhill. You could just as easily say keep your CM over your skis?
 

James

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Here's Chuck's take.


The feet have to go from well in front of the hips to underneath. To some, "pushing feet ahead" as you near the trough works, then pulling back as in the video. The big point is there's a range. Getting stuck in one mode - feet way ahead- blow up at top. Feet always under hips- problem when hitting face of bump.
Notice in the still screen on the video his feet are pretty far ahead and they're in process of coming back.

The other key is this stuff has to happen before it needs to. One needs to anticipate when the feet need to be pulled back. Wait or be passive and it's too late. Getting that timing at zipper speed is pretty impressive.
Active suspension!
 
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Wilhelmson

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Here's Chuck's take.


The feet have to go from well in front of the hips to underneath. To some, "pushing feet ahead" as you near the trough works, then pulling back as in the video. The big point is there's a range. Getting stuck in one mode - feet way ahead- blow up at top. Feet always under hips- problem when hitting face of bump.
Notice in the still screen on the video his feet are pretty far ahead and they're in process of coming back.

The other key is this stuff has to happen before it needs to. One needs to anticipate when the feet need to be pulled back. Wait or be passive and it's too late. Getting that timing at zipper speed is pretty impressive.
Active suspension!
If I had a sweet onesie with black belt and knee pads like that dude I'd rip up the bumps too.
 

tball

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I don't consciously think about pulling my feet back. I focus on driving my tips down the back side of the bump and keeping my skis on the snow. I think your feet come back as a natural consequence of that.
 

SSSdave

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Thanks James for the video of Martin.

At 0:04, "I assume you have spent a lot of time skiing flats to perfect your stacked position".

Note skiing flats with that alignment is abnormal, not something one normally needs to do even when making short turns. In my case it is a matter of being able to recall the usual positional feeling I have when skiing down a mogul field then maintaining that feeling while skiing on flats. It is a bit forward of otherwise optimal verticality because on actual mogul slopes one needs to be slightly ahead for better moment to moment control avoiding getting in the back seat being perpendicular to an inclined slope.

At 1:15 is his explanation of drawing the feet back. Another way I look at that without much active pulling back awareness is allowing the upper body above the knees to move ahead maintaining the stacked feeling sinking down with more relaxation while the lower leg and feet are allowed to absorb the bump compression more gradually falling behind instead of impacting more firmly that is more an accelerating launching feeling. Also at 1:30 notice the slight forward tilt of the stacked position I mentioned above when skiing flats that necessarily is so in order to be perpendicular to the slope of a hill in order provide optimal leverage against snow.
 

karlo

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Pull feet back, tips down are cues. Did I pull my feet back? Did my tips point down on the front side. Another cue could be, a term Dan Egan passed along, is do the skis match the ramp angle of the front side?

Another way to "look" at it, is not what you see, but what you feel. Do you feel really balanced and over the skis when you are on the from side, capable of instantly choosing and making the next turn? Do you feel like you absorbed the bump sufficiently to give you that lift into that (parabolic?) trajectory, with its sense of weightlessness, to land at the right ramp angle? The "whoop" feeling being lifted upwards, the "-sie" feeling when coming down?

Helps to be fully extended when entering the bump, for full use of the shock absorbers. Then, going through the bump, the focus is on core and upper body passing through the desired trajectory. The shock absorbers, once ready for use, act by themselves.

Personally, anytime my focus is on maintaining 100% contact of skis to snow, there's a big impact and its hard on my knees. Ibfind that embracing and seeking that whoop-sie effect is a lot gentler. That said, you won't find me racing anyone down a mogul field.
 

Rod9301

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If you feel weightless on the back side of the bump, you need to pull the feet back and extend at the same time more, almost like you slap your tails on the back side.

There's no need to feel if you need to pull the feet back.
They should be pulled back always as soon as you crest the bump.
By the time you feel in the back seat, it's too late.
 

Chris Geib

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Eh, good grief @Philpug , zipper line bumps on an internet discussion forum …what could go wrong!

If we’re going there, might as well start with some matches and gasoline! Bumpers are often ridiculed as athletic neanderthals that cannot actually ski. I suppose you can find video to support that position if you want. Personally, I think good bumpers are some of the most accomplished and versatile skiers you can find …and if you want to be a good bumper then the recipe is the same as elsewhere on the mountain: fundamentals {how boring} [also note I did not say one is accomplished and versatile because they ski bumps…]

Good bumpers are masters at rotary (all forms), edging, pressure-lateral&fore/aft & balance; being able to separate those and seamlessly blending them as necessary to address what is underfoot …or about to be! …and like literally right freaking now on demand fast. Good bumpers also demonstrate great command of purpose, will and touch.

Lots of good advice on technique above, but before that. Where are you equipment wise? How are your boots for fore/aft alignment? …as it is kinda critical in your chosen venue! Are you able to flex and extend fully from one extreme to the other (knees in chest to straight legs) while maintaining your balance and staying cuff neutral in your boots? …try it on a flat surface without skis and with the boots shimmed to the same angle as the delta of your bindings. Good? Are your boots and skis of appropriate length and flex for a beginning bumper or did you buy Glenn Plake’s setup? Many express you “adapt” to your equipment/alignment and overcome ...and that can work. My opinion is there is already a thing or two you have to concern yourself with in the bumps so go ahead and take these things out of the mix.

How are the fundamentals? Got this stuff dialed on groomers? How about flat groomers going slower than a sloth! How’s the rotary pool? (more gasoline!) Skilled at Rotation, Counter-rotation, Stem turns, Independent leg steering, Anticipation, Blocking pole plants… mixing them? Flexion/Extension? Do you have a full range of motion? Do you use it? Can you change edges while: extending, fully extended, flexing, fully flexed? …does your edge change rely on a certain sequence you need to complete (like most) or are you able to move through neutral at will from one turn to another? Foot to foot work, comfortable with it? ..needs work? Fore/aft? …are you comfortable moving your feet under you in order to accommodate terrain and stay centered doing so? I think there is a current thread with a ton of drills highlighted. Anyway, not intended to be a complete list but point being all play together and there is no magic mogul trick, it is just fundamentals applied. …and don’t limit yourself i.e. blocking pole plants bad, counter-rotation bad, steering bad, etc. Be more skillful :)

To go faster, you have to do it more efficiently (get rid of extraneous motions that aren’t needed), do what is required quicker, and learn the timing as James mentioned. If you’re running away, then slow it down and dial in the skills and precision. A ton can be gained by skiing those moguls extremely slowly (no, I mean way slower than that, no, even slower still) and the precision that is required to do so, then that precision gained will apply when the speed is dialed up.

For the feet pull-back/containment. I would work with everything that all the prior posters have raised! All good suggestions and as Jack mentioned it is more about what makes the connection for you. Work it slowly, then add speed. Also work the skills individually then try blending them together. For example, lets look at tball’s scenario: Can that be a blend of refined edging used to slow the feet and let the mogul push the feet back, while at the same time flexing (passively or actively depending on rate needed) while allowing the body to flow across the feet and change edges while compressing and passing over the crest, so now we are ahead of our feet and the skis naturally roll forward to match the pitch of the backside of the bump and we can begin to extend again into the trough. Naturally as James mentioned we have to anticipate meeting our skis at the crest of the bump and consciously move there in order to be in position to flow across the skis and into the new turn.

One more time for good measure: Fundamentals! Never waste a flat, work the easy stuff hard so the hard stuff becomes easy...

Sometimes some pictures help, so here a few images and graphics from the archives that have been posted in the past by Bob Barnes or myself. And of course, there are a ton of good videos like the one James linked above!


BackPedal4.gif
Forward+lean+images2-1.jpg
BobsBackPedalInBalancedBoot.gif
BackPedalUprightBootOutBack.gif
BackPedalFwdLeanBoot.gif
 
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RichGuo

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Thanks for all suggestions above, every time i bailed out like the second guy in this video when he begin lost center on ski

 
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RichGuo

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In order to ski a steeper seeded mogul run, you need to use all of your absorption range. Use the blue run to front load the ski as you approach , you start the absorption as you go up the face of the bump, toward a shoulder. Once your near the highest point of the shoulder, that will be your lowest absorption range. After you crest this shoulder, that's when you extend, either pull back the feet or drive the hip over the feet. Mechanically they are the same but IMO, its how you react to mental cues and whether there are unwanted side effects in either mental cue.

Practice this on the blue run before you go on the steeper one. This technique is needed if you only have access to seeded runs. I've been on course where its a single or a double lane, each lane deep rutted. You can't meander nor go to other lines for speed control.
I seems always make big effort to get my hip over the feet, I can only do it about 5 or 6 bumps then bang!, bailed out .
 

Zentune

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I find it really helpful when working with others on flex/extend and backpedaling to have them try them in traverses, going across the field rather than down it. Helps to take away the out of control due to speed issue and so helps them really focus in on timing, which as @James notes needs to be very much PRO-active....

Skiing bumps very slowly as @FrancoisPugh suggests is also very helpful, sometimes people “rush” to either look impressive or because that’s what they think they should do.

Cool new backpedal images @cgeib! I havent seen those last 2, I saved them ;-)

zenny
 
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RichGuo

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Eh, good grief @Philpug , zipper line bumps on an internet discussion forum …what could go wrong!

If we’re going there, might as well start with some matches and gasoline! Bumpers are often ridiculed as athletic neanderthals that cannot actually ski. I suppose you can find video to support that position if you want. Personally, I think good bumpers are some of the most accomplished and versatile skiers you can find …and if you want to be a good bumper then the recipe is the same as elsewhere on the mountain: fundamentals {how boring} [also note I did not say one is accomplished and versatile because they ski bumps…]

Good bumpers are masters at rotary (all forms), edging, pressure-lateral&fore/aft & balance; being able to separate those and seamlessly blending them as necessary to address what is underfoot …or about to be! …and like literally right freaking now on demand fast. Good bumpers also demonstrate great command of purpose, will and touch.

Lots of good advice on technique above, but before that. Where are you equipment wise? How are your boots for fore/aft alignment? …as it is kinda critical in your chosen venue! Are you able to flex and extend fully from one extreme to the other (knees in chest to straight legs) while maintaining your balance and staying cuff neutral in your boots? …try it on a flat surface without skis and with the boots shimmed to the same angle as the delta of your bindings. Good? Are your boots and skis of appropriate length and flex for a beginning bumper or did you buy Glenn Plake’s setup? Many express you “adapt” to your equipment/alignment and overcome ...and that can work. My opinion is there is already a thing or two you have to concern yourself with in the bumps so go ahead and take these things out of the mix.

How are the fundamentals? Got this stuff dialed on groomers? How about flat groomers going slower than a sloth! How’s the rotary pool? (more gasoline!) Skilled at Rotation, Counter-rotation, Stem turns, Independent leg steering, Anticipation, Blocking pole plants… mixing them? Flexion/Extension? Do you have a full range of motion? Do you use it? Can you change edges while: extending, fully extended, flexing, fully flexed? …does your edge change rely on a certain sequence you need to complete (like most) or are you able to move through neutral at will from one turn to another? Foot to foot work, comfortable with it? ..needs work? Fore/aft? …are you comfortable moving your feet under you in order to accommodate terrain and stay centered doing so? I think there is a current thread with a ton of drills highlighted. Anyway, not intended to be a complete list but point being all play together and there is no magic mogul trick, it is just fundamentals applied. …and don’t limit yourself i.e. blocking pole plants bad, counter-rotation bad, steering bad, etc. Be more skillful :)

To go faster, you have to do it more efficiently (get rid of extraneous motions that aren’t needed), do what is required quicker, and learn the timing as James mentioned. If you’re running away, then slow it down and dial in the skills and precision. A ton can be gained by skiing those moguls extremely slowly (no, I mean way slower than that, no, even slower still) and the precision that is required to do so, then that precision gained will apply when the speed is dialed up.

For the feet pull-back/containment. I would work with everything that all the prior posters have raised! All good suggestions and as Jack mentioned it is more about what makes the connection for you. Work it slowly, then add speed. Also work the skills individually then try blending them together. For example, lets look at tball’s scenario: Can that be a blend of refined edging used to slow the feet and let the mogul push the feet back, while at the same time flexing (passively or actively depending on rate needed) while allowing the body to flow across the feet and change edges while compressing and passing over the crest, so now we are ahead of our feet and the skis naturally roll forward to match the pitch of the backside of the bump and we can begin to extend again into the trough. Naturally as James mentioned we have to anticipate meeting our skis at the crest of the bump and consciously move there in order to be in position to flow across the skis and into the new turn.

One more time for good measure: Fundamentals! Never waste a flat, work the easy stuff hard so the hard stuff becomes easy...

Sometimes some pictures help, so here a few images and graphics from the archives that have been posted in the past by Bob Barnes or myself. And of course, there are a ton of good videos like the one James linked above!


View attachment 36752 View attachment 36753 View attachment 36754 View attachment 36756 View attachment 36757
I have K2 163/66, my boot flex mark as 80.

I understand I am not good groomer, I lack lots skill sets for skiing zipperline, but I'd like let mogul teach me to be good skier, when I ski blue run(seeded mogul), I just let bumps turn me, that feeling is owesome.
 
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