When skiing, who actually picks a particular turn point?

[Doug Briggs]

I scanned this thread quickly. No one has mentioned racing. That is the only time I consciously choose my turns.

When I'm skiing trees, I choose lines but my turns are still done for the most part sub-consciously, I'm not choosing a spot ror a turn, but seeing spaces where I can turn. My groomer skiing is a matter of rhythms and and patterns or lack thereof. I'll make some big turns then short turns, then maybe one of each. Turn location is arbitrary.

 

[tball]

"I want to ski over THAT particular point during my turn".

In powder most definitely, as others have said.

I think the desire to put your mark in untracked powder is ingrained. I've watched our kids do it from day one. They get joy in tracking up even tiny untracked spots.

They could be influenced by a powder obsessed dad, but I think it's more like animals marking their territory. Or, maybe like the simple joy of knocking down a pile of blocks.

Check out this video at 8 seconds where I have to put my tracks in a small last untracked patch. Then I go off and make a number of questionable choices on that first pow seeking run to try to get every last bit of untracked. I'm not thinking about it, I'm more like an addict on instinct picking each turn to maximize my pow hits.


You all do the same to at least some degree when overcome with pow fever, right?

 

[Bad Bob]

Got thinking about this thread this afternoon.
We spend years practicing, learning, drilling on all kinds of terrain to reach a point where we can ski at a subconscious level. Yes there are times I will make a conscious choice on where to turn, but often I can't even find my tracks (and it is not entirely a bad memory). If doing drills, skiing around a crowd, or where there might be serious consequences to make a mistake there obviously will be a higher level of awareness.
Most of my skiing comes from a very quiet place in the mind though.

 

[Josh Matta]

I scanned this thread quickly. No one has mentioned racing. That is the only time I consciously choose my turns.

When I'm skiing trees, I choose lines but my turns are still done for the most part sub-consciously, I'm not choosing a spot ror a turn, but seeing spaces where I can turn. My groomer skiing is a matter of rhythms and and patterns or lack thereof. I'll make some big turns then short turns, then maybe one of each. Turn location is arbitrary.

you need to come ski some eastern wood when they are skied out, I am certain you will start paying attention to where your skis are ....

 

[Doug Briggs]

you need to come ski some eastern wood when they are skied out, I am certain you will start paying attention to where your skis are ....

I've done that. In the 90s I telemarked the White Mountains a lot. The trees here keep me on my toes, but I'm not choosing and selecting turn location so much as responding to my choice of line in order to avoid collisions. I managed to hug a 3" lodgepole today.

 

[Dakine]

Nothing tunes up your ability to make turns where they need to be than skiing gates.
Josh doesn't seem to do gates as far as I remember which is surprising for a L3.
Most L3's I knows can crush a course.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that PSIA forbids any drills that are timed.

 

[Dakine]

Nothing tunes up your ability to make turns where they need to be than skiing gates.
Josh doesn't seem to do gates as far as I remember which is surprising for a L3.
Most L3's I knows can crush a course.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that PSIA forbids any drills that are timed.

 

[Josh Matta]

talk about some leading statements man.....

Sure running gates can make you better at skiing, it can also make you worse if you arent prepared for it.

I have run gates, but honestly it cost money to do so I really dont anymore. Most L3s dont run gates either........

Some L3 can crush a course, I am quite good at SL and SG, youd probably beat me in GS unless there was tons of off set

PSIA runs race clinics......again I have to take a day off from freeskiing to run gates though......so I dont.

 

[CalG]

talk about some leading statements man.....

Sure running gates can make you better at skiing, it can also make you worse if you arent prepared for it.

I have run gates, but honestly it cost money to do so I really dont anymore. Most L3s dont run gates either........

Some L3 can crush a course, I am quite good at SL and SG, youd probably beat me in GS unless there was tons of off set

PSIA runs race clinics......again I have to take a day off from freeskiing to run gates though......so I dont.

Rational

https://www.pugski.com/threads/what-keeps-you-from-taking-ski-lessons.13382/page-6#post-309159

 

[Dakine]

The clock doesn't lie.
It is my personal bias that a high level ski instructor should have to demonstrate competence in a course.
PSIA hates on doing any kind of timed drills.
I turned in my speed suit when I got my knee replaced as an attempt at adulthood.
But damn., I miss the rush of kicking out of the gate and trying to drill it.
Ski racing is one of the most fair sports going as far as cheating is concerned.
It also really teaches you about wax and tune.
But it is no substitute for learning from a great instructor like you.
Seriously.
To me, Mikela's skiing is perfection in the way she keeps her COM flowing in the right direction without bobbles.
I don't think she would ever get that good with any amount of freeskiing.
Not to take away from the backcountry guys but that is a whole other sport.

 

[Philpug]

For me it depends. Sometimes I let the terrain dictate a turn, sometimes I turn based on desired outcome.

 

[Philpug]

The clock doesn't lie.

1. It is my personal bias that a high level ski instructor should have to demonstrate competence in a course.
2. PSIA hates on doing any kind of timed drills.
3. I turned in my speed suit when I got my knee replaced as an attempt at adulthood.
4. But damn., I miss the rush of kicking out of the gate and trying to drill it.
5. Ski racing is one of the most fair sports going as far as cheating is concerned.
6. It also really teaches you about wax and tune.
7. But it is no substitute for learning from a great instructor like you.
8. Seriously.
9. To me, Mikela's skiing is perfection in the way she keeps her COM flowing in the right direction without bobbles.
10. I don't think she would ever get that good with any amount of freeskiing.
11. Not to take away from the backcountry guys but that is a whole other sport.

1. I agree, competence...doesn't have to be the fastest..or the best. I always refer back to Charlie Lau in baseball, he was arguably the best batting coach in ever, he taught Rod Carew, George Brett (the last two hitters to flirt with .400) amongst others how to hit, yet he had a short MBL carreer with a batting average of .255
2. Do they?
5. Not sure what you mean by "cheating"?
5A. As far as being "fair", it could be argued that it is not, better racers get better conditions to race in than ones that have later starts. Fair would be that all racers had indentical conditions to compete on.
6. Can technique outside the race course help you in the race course?

 

[Dakine]

2. To the best of my knowledge, that is true. My examiner friend who was also on the technical committee proposed some timed drills and was shot down.
5. By cheating, I'm talking about the basics. You can't pay your caddy to move the ball when nobody is looking. and very good equipment is available to all unlike motor sports.
6. Absolutely, if you can't make a clean carve freeskiing you will never be able to do it in the course. Racing simply adds the elements of turns in places not of your choosing and ruts that nobody would choose to ski in as well as line selection.

 

[Johnny V.]

6. Can technique outside the race course help you in the race course?

I'm sure you know this Phil, but you really can't work on technique in the race course. Tactics-sure and possibly trying out different approaches, but basic technique must be worked on outside the gates. And the benefit on technique work as you try to lower your course time make you a better freeskier.

 

[CalG]

Of course {-)
On the course
The skier doesn't actually choose the turn location. There is gate put in place that removes the options, freeing the skier to concentrate on other aspects.

 

[Lorenzzo]

Yes.

One might naturally extend this thought model further: Since the perception -> consciousness pathway is MUCH slower than the perception -> action pathway, we might well be interpreting these decisecond intervals as 'points'. Which is a perfectly usable definition, better than most.

Then it gets a bit rocky. If we're *not* applying pre-existing training and conditioning to make these corrective actions, we are forced to concluded that the brain *can* learn and unconsciously act - even to competence levels, bypassing the whole consciousness/competence rectangle.

To me tree skiing is almost always within one or both of these two realms, often the latter which is part of what makes it fun. I'm not consciously intelligent enough to tree ski. Humans seem to exaggerate their conscious function.

Almost anything that encourages visualization seems helpful for me and line focus does that as well as let me choose how to adapt to the terrain.

 

[CalG]

Picking a single point to turn on is not a good strategy if you want to have 'flow' in your skiing. Once you hit that point, you need to pick another, else you are lost.

Picking a path is good. This implies picking multiple points. Just easier to say 'path.'

Picking a turn rhythm also works. I find that poles are especially essential in this. Mentally, it's easier for me to decide with a wrist flick to turn, rather than to move the legs to turn. If you start thinking about the turn with your feet, the whole process seems slower. With the pole plant/touch, the rest of the body just does what it needs to make the turn happen.

Whoa! If the turn starts with a pole flick, and then "the rest of the body just does what it needs to make a turn happen" , your are going to set the ski instruction forum on fire!

;-)

 

[Dakine]

Actually, my carved turns start by raising my big toe on the outside ski which presses the ball of my foot into the footbed and cocks my ankle to tip that ski.
Pay attention and try it....

 

[CalG]

Actually, my carved turns start by raising my big toe on the outside ski which presses the ball of my foot into the footbed and cocks my ankle to tip that ski.
Pay attention and try it....

When does the "pole flick trigger" come in? ;-)

 

[Chris Walker]

On a groomer under a lift I used to like to slalom the shadows of the chairs coming up. That was pretty fun; trying to hit a moving target.

In probably the early 80s in Ski magazine, there was one of those sidebar tip blurbs titled "Snowball Slalom" that suggested if you spot a chunk of loose snow, a pine cone, or similar irregularity down the slope, that you try to turn around it, racing gate style. That can be fun, when you can safely do so.