When is powder TOO deep?

[Blue Streak]

I didn't quote whomever asked the question but....

NARSID: Non-Avalanche Related Snow Immersion Deaths

Scary stuff.

 

[Jim Kenney]

Didn’t read this whole thread, but I know what DBos is concerned about. I experienced the deepest fresh snow skiing of my life during a week in late Jan 2017 at Snowbird when they received 81”. Day after day of 12-18” snowfalls. One day during a heavy, low-viz squall I went out on the mtn with another friend. We were doing middle or lower cirque where the accumulated new snow was about three to four feet deep. He was a better/more aggressive skier than me and he fell in a pocket of snow that was even deeper. After a few seconds only his head popped up out of the snow. I was about 50 yrds downhill and I was really glad to see him. In the deep conditions it would have been very hard/impossible for me to climb back up in time if his breathing had been obstructed. I took a fairly high speed fall that day or the next that left most of my body under the snow, but I had one arm free and used it to clear snow away from my face, which was sort of sideways to the snow. I struggled, but couldn’t get the rest of my body out. Fortunately, this happened under Gad 2 chair at the bottom of STH and after a minute a friendly stranger came by and offered me the end of his ski pole and yanked me out. I spent about five more minutes there looking for one ski that came off and was buried under the snow. That night as the snow kept falling I had a fearful thought in bed that if I’d been alone in a remote part of the mtn and stuck face down it could have been ugly. My fears were associated with falling, not if you stay up and keep moving. My son has skied in the latter conditions, where you are submerged even while moving forward. That’s like what Grump described, keep moving until you come out it and don’t fall. Definitely want to try to ski with a buddy on super deep snow days. I’ll post some pictures here tonight from Snowbird, late Jan 2017. Maybe westerners who experience these conditions once or twice a season are more comfortable, but as a fellow Virginian who has only seen this kind of snow once or twice a lifetime it was pretty intense. Fun, but intense

PHOTOS TO ILLUSTRATE ABOVE POST, SNOWBIRD LATE JAN 2017:

 

[Monique]

So I was ripping down one of the trails on the front face, with a group of guys. It was not totally bottomless, but close. Beautiful. Visibility, not so much. All of a sudden I felt nothing underneath me. Next thing I knew, I hit hard. Both knees into my chest. Wind knocked out of me, goggles broken. Now, I am sure, concussed. And lying on about 3" of snow. WTF? Turns out that they had been keeping one cat track on the mountain cleared every couple of hours in case they had an emergency. No warning. About a 10 foot drop onto the cat track. I later heard that "normally" they had a rope up to warn of that drop. Evidently the biggest one around. Boom! Bottomless steep to flat rock hard. Great luck. I was lucky not to break something.

I know someone who did something similar in low vis, except on a mountain he knew very well - the vis just tricked him. Not as far to fall, but he broke his back. It was touch and go for a while. Vis is no joke.




Interesting thread. I think as described in detail above, it's not just about snow depth but about the density of the snow.

Also, I just don't ski that fast in powder, and would worry that I wouldn't ski fast enough to stay on top. But I've never seen conditions where I had to worry about it. Honestly, and this is heresy, but 2-3' of non-concrete seems like plenty.

I've never permanently lost a ski, but have dug for a ski for a long time. It's exhausting, especially if you're anxious/afraid because of the situation. I own powder cords and have never used them. They're a slight annoyance, but I really need to get over it.

 

[BMC]

One time about chest deep in Hakuba - so deep (and slightly thick) that you really couldn't turn much, even down quite steep pitches. That one time I thought I should invest in proper powder skis (rather than the 99mm underfoot skis I was using that day).

One time only though!!!

I did buy the powder skis - K2 Coomba 114 but I haven't used them yet.

 

[TonyC]

Just 3 occasions in my case.

Last day in Niseko in January 2011 was 40 inches new and not steep enough to maintain momentum on what I thought were adequate powder skis, Head Jimis 103-110-120. In untracked I would grind to a halt waist deep and have to slog out. I needed to stay on trail in snow that had been skied some to keep going.

February 2013 at Mustang Snowcat was 33 inches new but somewhat upside down, heavy snow on top of lighter snow. I was on the same Jimis and recognized the problem right away. They provided me with a wider ski with more surface area which prevented the submarining.

White Grizzly in March 2012 was 50 inches new. Even though it was in the trees they were rightly concerned about snow stability. If you fell snow could easily cover your face and it took a lot of effort to get up. The next 3 days with that snow settling a bit were epic. But that first day we were all very conservative how we skied.

I have perverse knack for missing the really deep days in LCC. But many of the Utah locals wear their avy gear inbounds on the big days.

 

[markojp]

That last bit about inbounds with avy gear, we do too. I almost don't want to mention it online... On Epic, the subject became a total and epicly deep s:::storm.

 

[ZionPow]

Too much powder only occurs for me when I pull a toboggan a long distance in deep untracked snow on a low angle slope to transport an injured quest. Fortunately most of the storms we get in the Wasatch are what we refer to as "right side up". This occurs because most of the storms come in warm and drop an initial layer of higher density/higher moisture content snow. After the cool front passes, the top layer of snow (usually due to orographic lifting) is lighter and drier. "Right side up" storms are the "Greatest Snow on Earth" to ski!

 

[DanoT]

One thing that I have observed over the years is that powder snow clouds the mind, negatively affecting judgement.

I have on powder days gone places and skied lines, taken chances, that I probably shouldn't have.

A lot of experienced back country skiers have perished when one might expect it to happen more to the less experienced.

I have also sneaked on the chair with the "First Tracks Breakfast" skiers on a powder day, got noticed as I got off the chair but ski skated away so fast that I was gone before anyone could react. This requires a sharp, opportunistic mind.

 

[bud heishman]

This thread makes me recall some fond memories at Snowbird and Brighton of armpit deep fluff. It also brings back funny memories from Mammoth while getting first drop down Avi chute one off chair 22 on a powder day. I figured Avi one was steep enough to not have to sit back to keep my tips from diving and took off straight down and before I could make my first turn, came to a screeching halt pointing straight down the fall line stuck up to my belly button in deep snow (Sierra cement). This was a debacle as I couldn't reach my bindings to click out. After digging snow from behind my legs for close to a half hour, I was able to click out and get out of the hole. It took me another 20 minutes to dig my skis out. Needless to say, I didn't get first tracks that morning.

It wasn't uncommon at Mammoth to have powder days where choking from inhaling a constant stream of snow shooting into your face was a legitimate hazard and some actually skied with snorkels.

 

[Wilhelmson]

About 20 years ago I jumped off a small cliff at Loveland Pass and was three feet over my head in snow - standing up. Took a while to dig my skis out.

 

[Monique]

About 20 years ago I jumped off a small cliff at Loveland Pass and was three feet over my head in snow - standing up. Took a while to dig my skis out.

So, serious question, isn't there a breathing issue there?