• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

What's essential for carving on hard snow?

Status
Not open for further replies.

razie

Sir Shiftsalot
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Posts
1,619
Location
Ontario
I went back and looked at one of my first posts, and I see that the way I wrote it was my mistake. I said you can't turn until you reach the critical edge angle, but that was not what I meant. What I meant was that you won't be edge locked until you reach the critical edge angle. This means that the ski will smear and skid, but it will still continue to turn increasing the edge angles until you reach the critical angle and become more edge locked. My point was that people are floating through transition and steering the skis to skip this skidding phase to give pencil tracks. The irony is that the perfect track is not just from tipping, while people tend to focus on just tipping as perfect carving.

While it's easy for the ski to turn and skid when flat and unloaded, it will not "continue to turn" without being rotated - so while transitioning in a straight line, it will continue on a straight line while you tip it on edge more and more and engage more and more. The trick is to have the fine ski control to keep it from pivoting, especially if you have some counter when exiting the previous turn.

I know this may kick off another thing about "early pressure" - a race coach's darling - , but this is why delaying pressure as much as possible is a valuable skill: loading the ski too early will impair engagement, especially on ice, as the ski is not at the sufficient edge angle yet and it may break through the snow or skid on the surface. Watch the slowed down M.S. sequence and see how gently she starts loading it as it is tipped on edge...

Warren W I believe had a nice paragraph on this, along the lines of allowing pressure to appear only when the ski is at a sufficient edge angle or such...
 

Scruffy

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 16, 2015
Posts
2,429
Location
Upstate NY
While it's easy for the ski to turn and skid when flat and unloaded, it will not "continue to turn" without being rotated - so while transitioning in a straight line, it will continue on a straight line while you tip it on edge more and more and engage more and more. The trick is to have the fine ski control to keep it from pivoting, especially if you have some counter when exiting the previous turn.

I know this may kick off another thing about "early pressure" - a race coach's darling - , but this is why delaying pressure as much as possible is a valuable skill: loading the ski too early will impair engagement, especially on ice, as the ski is not at the sufficient edge angle yet and it may break through the snow or skid on the surface. Watch the slowed down M.S. sequence and see how gently she starts loading it as it is tipped on edge...

Warren W I believe had a nice paragraph on this, along the lines of allowing pressure to appear only when the ski is at a sufficient edge angle or such...

Yes, and that's what's meant by "light on your edges in ice".
 

skier

Getting on the lift
Pass Pulled
Inactive
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Posts
266
While it's easy for the ski to turn and skid when flat and unloaded, it will not "continue to turn" without being rotated - so while transitioning in a straight line, it will continue on a straight line while you tip it on edge more and more and engage more and more. The trick is to have the fine ski control to keep it from pivoting, especially if you have some counter when exiting the previous turn.

I know this may kick off another thing about "early pressure" - a race coach's darling - , but this is why delaying pressure as much as possible is a valuable skill: loading the ski too early will impair engagement, especially on ice, as the ski is not at the sufficient edge angle yet and it may break through the snow or skid on the surface. Watch the slowed down M.S. sequence and see how gently she starts loading it as it is tipped on edge...

Warren W I believe had a nice paragraph on this, along the lines of allowing pressure to appear only when the ski is at a sufficient edge angle or such...

It seems we actually agree quite a bit at this point. Just, if you haven't loaded the ski it won't be bent. If it's not bent, it can't rotate on it's own. If you wait to load the ski until it's at a high edge angle, then the ski will still be running away from you instead of turning under you at a moment when you need the ski to catch you from falling. The ski must catch you from falling, because if you start at a high edge angle it will require centrifugal force to balance immediately. This is why skiers do some redirecting at the top of the turn when floating as HardDaysNight said. So, it seems the choice is float and redirect, or as you describe, load the ski early and impair engagement, which is exactly what I've been saying, apply rotary input or skid. I'll bet that some don't think of it as rotary input, because it's just part of the transition, but it is. The skier rotates the ski, so that it's moving in a different direction than the skier's momentum in order to create a platform to stand on when the edges are engaged at a higher angle.
 

razie

Sir Shiftsalot
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Posts
1,619
Location
Ontario
Pressure and edge angle and ski bend are not on/off switches... and indeed, managing this part well and having a light touch is one of the reasons why it's harder to carve on ice and it eludes a lot of skiers.

From personal experience, it is quite hard to teach it to skiers that are used to brace hard and push against a ski, because they use that as a crutch and lack real balance. Pushing hard at the end of the previous turn will generally result in having to skip the entire top of the arc and do what you describe...

The only cure is to stop pushing into the ski earlier and relax, so the fine ski control can take place and maintain snow contact.

I think of it this way: creating pressure is an advanced skill, avoiding it is an expert skill...
 
Last edited:

Average Joe

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Jul 5, 2017
Posts
554
Warren W I believe had a nice paragraph on this, along the lines of allowing pressure to appear only when the ski is at a sufficient edge angle or such...

".....racers must be skilled at first edging and then pressuring their skis. The ability to achieve early edge angles early in a turn - without skidding - is critical for racing success"
p 221, The Athletic Skier, Warren Witherell and David Evrand, 1993.

Years before shaped skis "changed" skiing, Witherell nailed it....angles first, then pressure. Yet race coaches still talk about early pressure.... in reality it's first and foremost about rolling them up and maximizing the edge angles.
 

JESinstr

Lvl 3 1973
Skier
Joined
May 4, 2017
Posts
1,133
".....racers must be skilled at first edging and then pressuring their skis. The ability to achieve early edge angles early in a turn - without skidding - is critical for racing success"
p 221, The Athletic Skier, Warren Witherell and David Evrand, 1993.

Years before shaped skis "changed" skiing, Witherell nailed it....angles first, then pressure. Yet race coaches still talk about early pressure.... in reality it's first and foremost all about rolling them up and maximizing the edge angles.

Excellent timing. I am currently working with a holiday university program and yesterday we were working on exactly that. LIFT THE EDGES then SHORTEN the Inside leg to build the edge angles and manage the resulting pressure.

BTW Warren once taught at my old home area (Greek Peak) prior to his rise to race coaching prominence. On the back cover (The original publication) of "How the Racers ski", he is wearing the GP SS sweater given to him by Gordy Richardson. I am sure Gordy and WW are making some turns together in the great beyond.
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,256
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
If so, does that imply that you can't make RR track with just gentle tipping of the skis?

Yes, the trouble with this "must rotate the ski at the top of the turn" theory is that we can make RR tracks by tipping and without rotation. The tracks prove it.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,439
If so, does that imply that you can't make RR track with just gentle tipping of the skis?
If one fuses the hips in the sockets -yes. Most normal humans, even those rebuilt for less than $6 million, will be ok.

Just like the editor of that US ski video posted above implies that Bode would have been better had he not gotten "back" all the time. Meanwhile, excluding Mikaela, (who has the only worthwhile thing to say), he's the only succesful wcup skier in the vid.

Mikaela's statement is in direct opposition to what the editor presented Sasha Rearick as saying. Who knows what he was asked, but ankles flexed forward all the time doesn't square with Mikaela's fore to aft range statement. Nice to see she's aligning statements with what she actually does instead of repeating skiing aphorisms heard as a youth.

As a relatively new skier, this thread could make you worse.
 

skier

Getting on the lift
Pass Pulled
Inactive
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Posts
266
Yes, the trouble with this "must rotate the ski at the top of the turn" theory is that we can make RR tracks by tipping and without rotation. The tracks prove it.

The tracks don't prove that it was only from tipping. I realize that many people claim they only tip. That's the interesting thing about it, and certainly the counter claim would be unpopular, since people love to claim rotary input is inferior skiing. Skidding and rotary is everywhere in ski racing, and not just for stivots.


I find it odd how just one small part of ski racing (arc to arc carving) used for just a few turns, becomes the sacred cow to the point where clear examples of rotary input become invisible to those that don't want to be associated with it.


Just when the conversation is dying down, I can always count on you Geepers to try to stoke the flames. I'm flattered by the attention I always get from you when I post, but you don't have to counter me all the time. When I post, it's because I feel I have a different perspective than most, and there will be plenty of people to oppose me. The world will be ok, if your'e not there to argue against me.
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,256
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
What am I forgetting?

One extra thing... skier must remain mobile both fore/aft and laterally.

Fore/aft - stroking the ski through the arc. Use the whole ski, especially important on ice. (Thanks @mike_m for the post that finally got that msg to me...)

Laterally, always increasing OR decreasing inclination. Necessary to balance against the varying centripetal forces throughout the turn.

(That latter one is catching me out now. Mr Park'n'Ride.:(. My goal this season is to turn 5.3 into 6 or preferably 7.)

As a relatively new skier, this thread could make you worse.

Well, I think it started off very well. But we kind of veered into some interesting territory.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,439
The tracks don't prove that it was only from tipping. I realize that many people claim they only tip. That's the interesting thing about it, and certainly the counter claim would be unpopular, since people love to claim rotary input is inferior skiing. Skidding and rotary is everywhere in ski racing, and not just for stivots.


I find it odd how just one small part of ski racing (arc to arc carving) used for just a few turns, becomes the sacred cow to the point where clear examples of rotary input become invisible to those that don't want to be associated with it.


Just when the conversation is dying down, I can always count on you Geepers to try to stoke the flames. I'm flattered by the attention I always get from you when I post, but you don't have to counter me all the time. When I post, it's because I feel I have a different perspective than most, and there will be plenty of people to oppose me. The world will be ok, if your'e not there to argue against me.
In a thread about carving you keep posting examples of not. Why not post examples of? Whoever said wcup racing, or racing in general, was just arc to arc? There have been times in the shape ski era when it was nearly that, but sidecuts and courses kept being changed to eliminate that.
Bode "invented" the power slide/stivot for the steep pitch at Soelden. He couldn't carve both turn directions and stay in the course, so he slid one direction and carved the other. To do that one ski got a bigger base bevel than the other.
So goeth the legend.
 

skier

Getting on the lift
Pass Pulled
Inactive
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Posts
266
In a thread about carving you keep posting examples of not. Why not post examples of?

I keep posting examples of not carving? You might have me mistaken with someone else. I only posted two videos as examples of skiing. One was of Razie and the other was of Hirscher. So, for me to repeatedly post videos of not carving you'd have to mean that Razie isn't carving. I'm pretty sure that Razie was posting his video to demonstrate an excellent example of carving. I would have to agree with Razie that his skiing is carving, though he does have rotary at the top of his turns. You can see it in all his turns, but that's going to happen for anyone that carves with such light transitions such as Hirscher, Ligety, Bode..., so he's in great company.
 
Last edited:

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,439
Please read what you write. That's all we have.

One can't do railroad tracks simply by tipping the feet. You'll fall over. You have to counter balance. But one can also do railroad tracks by not consciously tipping the feet at the ankle.

As a different thing, try on a gentle to moderate pitch trying to turn just by leaning over. (We called them nap time turns) See how far you can lean. It's actually pretty hard to fall down. Shorter sidecuts are better here as it keeps the speed down.
 
Thread Starter
TS
LiquidFeet

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,697
Location
New England
Please read what you write. That's all we have.

One can't do railroad tracks simply by tipping the feet. You'll fall over. You have to counter balance. But one can also do railroad tracks by not consciously tipping the feet at the ankle.

As a different thing, try on a gentle to moderate pitch trying to turn just by leaning over. (We called them nap time turns) See how far you can lean. It's actually pretty hard to fall down. Shorter sidecuts are better here as it keeps the speed down.

I've heard them called "comfort carves." They work if you're in the back seat, too. Although the carve gets lost. Skier probably doesn't know that, though.
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,256
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
The tracks don't prove that it was only from tipping. I realize that many people claim they only tip. That's the interesting thing about it, and certainly the counter claim would be unpopular, since people love to claim rotary input is inferior skiing. Skidding and rotary is everywhere in ski racing, and not just for stivots.


I find it odd how just one small part of ski racing (arc to arc carving) used for just a few turns, becomes the sacred cow to the point where clear examples of rotary input become invisible to those that don't want to be associated with it.


Just when the conversation is dying down, I can always count on you Geepers to try to stoke the flames. I'm flattered by the attention I always get from you when I post, but you don't have to counter me all the time. When I post, it's because I feel I have a different perspective than most, and there will be plenty of people to oppose me. The world will be ok, if your'e not there to argue against me.

Well, this is a thread about carving.

Since I've been training as per CSIA I'm very aware of rotary. For CSIA L3 it's necessary to be quite proficient at turns where the skis are rotated (via the legs) at transition. CSIA call them Intermediate Parallels and it is compulsory to demo the required standard in this type of turn. These types of turns are used extensively when skiing and flow into mastery of other types of turns - like short radius turns in steep terrain where steering the skis (rotary) is almost certain to be required.

CSIA also require Advanced Parallel where the intent is to use the ski design and not rotary. It is essentially a pure carving turn.

The tracks do reveal a great deal about any rotary component. A ski rotated across the direction of travel will skid and this will be visible in the track as a brushed trail. Where effectively every point along the ski follows the tip (carved turn) then the ski will leave a trench. Depth and width of the trench will depend on snow hardness and forces involved - so it may range from texta thin lines through to something a few centimeters deep/wide.

I can personally confirm (as I am sure can many, many skiers and multitude of vids/photos) that it is entirely possible to leave very precise RR tracks by tipping only. That's the way I was intro'ed to AP by the CSIA.

Interestingly my wife who is a very solid intermediate skier (fantastic balance but inclined to defensive habits like z-turns) simply cannot turn her skis using tipping / ski design. Always, always rotates them. An instructional challenge for the next ski holiday...


BTW the only reason I participate in this forum is to get things straight in my own head - or as straight as I can 12,000km and 2 weeks from the snow. No need to feel special.
 

skier

Getting on the lift
Pass Pulled
Inactive
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Posts
266
The tracks do reveal a great deal about any rotary component. A ski rotated across the direction of travel will skid and this will be visible in the track as a brushed trail. Where effectively every point along the ski follows the tip (carved turn) then the ski will leave a trench. Depth and width of the trench will depend on snow hardness and forces involved - so it may range from texta thin lines through to something a few centimeters deep/wide.

Yes, that's a good point, and I've thought a bit about this already. So, my argument goes that a ski will skid before it reaches the critical edge angle, so in order to make a railroad track it can't be loaded before the critical edge angle. But, the tracks show a pin line from transition, so how can this be? Either there is no such thing as the critical edge angle and the skidding phase or there's something else happening. I'm open to the idea that the critical edge angle is BS, though I've felt it on skis, and it's out there, people believe in it. So, I think what's happening is that there's some steering at the top of the turn to help the ski stay in it's track. This is probably what Josh is talking about when he says passive steering. I think maybe people don't think of it as steering, because the steering helps the ski stay in it's track rather than knocking it out of it's track. But, if you left the ski purely to it's own geometry without some rotary pressure by the skier, then it won't make that beautiful circular track at the top of the turn. I think railroad tracks are tough to make, because it takes this subtle rotary pressure that no one talks about. Tipping the ski is very easy to do. Having just the right rotary pressure is difficult.
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,256
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
Yes, that's a good point, and I've thought a bit about this already. So, my argument goes that a ski will skid before it reaches the critical edge angle, so in order to make a railroad track it can't be loaded before the critical edge angle. But, the tracks show a pin line from transition, so how can this be? Either there is no such thing as the critical edge angle and the skidding phase or there's something else happening. I'm open to the idea that the critical edge angle is BS, though I've felt it on skis, and it's out there, people believe in it. So, I think what's happening is that there's some steering at the top of the turn to help the ski stay in it's track. This is probably what Josh is talking about when he says passive steering. I think maybe people don't think of it as steering, because the steering helps the ski stay in it's track rather than knocking it out of it's track. But, if you left the ski purely to it's own geometry without some rotary pressure by the skier, then it won't make that beautiful circular track at the top of the turn. I think railroad tracks are tough to make, because it takes this subtle rotary pressure that no one talks about. Tipping the ski is very easy to do. Having just the right rotary pressure is difficult.

Yep, my experience is different.

Starting from gentle groomers (as per JB vid).... I don't find it at all hard to make RR tracks. Tip (with angulation to avoid falling over!) and the skis just carve. As speed increases we get to incline against the centripetal forces but still with angulation. I do not feel any critical angle - the ski is engaged immediately the edge is on the snow and it just carves an arc.

Now I watch my wife trying to replicate that. And she inevitably moves to the inside or twists her hips or some other piece of weirdness that requires her to rotate the skis to avoid falling over. Funnily enough, when she thinks about it, she can carve the last 1/2 of a turn (after the fall line). I also have a ski instructor buddy whose CSIA L2 and I have never seem him initiate a turn without some rotary.
My take atm is that these 2 are impatient and are trying to make something happen. Rather than just let it happen. I'm doing nothing but tip and balance. Absolutely no rotary.

Will write more on this later - day time here and got to do some stuff.


 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Sponsor

Staff online

  • Andy Mink
    Everyone loves spring skiing but not in January
Top