What's essential for carving on hard snow?

[Old boot]

LOL that would be the one that says Technical Reference Series 1 , watch to 5 and that's a turn carved

 

[dbostedo]

Maybe want to watch this ,even if they talk funny part of the time

I think they also should have captioned the parts in English.

 

[Old boot]

I think they also should have captioned the parts in English.

HAHA maybe

 

[geepers]

Nice bit of carving by Ligerty...


On the OP....

a. Would add upper/lower body separation.

It's partly in #4 although something like CSIA Tech Ref point 3 is worth considering: "Upper and lower body separation allows for angulation to provide grip".
In my experience not developing and maintaining separation will result in a quick lose of angulation and hence grip.​

b. OP #3 (inside ski)

The inside ski is active to be be sure (e.g. turn initiation, emergency) but in firm conditions the skier is going to predominantly balance on the outside ski. Yes, I know ski racers do it frequently but there are good reasons for the outside to be dominant.

https://www.paullorenzclinics.com/blog/inside-ski-or-outside-ski

Personally I don't fancy doing white pass turns in icy conditions and I'm unsure what benefits they bring even as a drill. (Maybe one of the long term ski instructors can advise when they use that drill with students and what issues they are trying to overcome / skills they are trying to develop.)​

 

[Josh Matta]

Using LF's definition it's not possible to carve with any radius or slope. BTW, there are some who believe the vid below is another form of carving. In addition, is more practical for the narrow trails in New England and tight glades.

I have always defined carved as a turn with more pressure and edging than rotary, and an arc with no active rotary.

with that said, those are for sure carved, and maybe even arguably arced, but they arent going to do you alot of good in eastern glades unless the snow is smooth and some what packed.

 

[Scruffy]

Q: is it possible to carve, given LF's definition, any radius or slope? I'm good up to a certain point, but after it gets too steep, I start to brush the tails and shorten the turns. A lot of it is speed: I get going past my comfort level and need to brake. Some would say I simply need to keep carving to finish the turn -- theoretically until I'm perpendicular to the fall line or even pointing uphill -- but then that takes up a whole lot more ski run than I usually have.

Is this simply my failure of technique (perhaps I could apply more bending force to the ski and shorten the radius that way), or is there some kind of practical limit to slope angle? Serious question.

Are you carving medium or longish turns with crossover? Or, short turns with crossunder? For steeper terrain you want to nail your short turns using dynamic crossunder. As the slope increases you will add some brush into the turn, and depending on your skill and strength, that brushing will come earlier for some than others on the same slope.

"Practical limit to slope angle?" Well, there's always a practical limit for slope angle in skiing, maybe ~70+* on a maritime slope, but back to our reality--no reason you can't use dynamic short turns on a 45* slope. As the slope increases from there, these dynamic short turns will look then less and less carved and more edge set to even a hop turn.

Oh, and hard snow ( ice ), just means you need to be lighter on your edges and manage your edge pressure with finesse.

Take a look at this PSIA instruction module:
http://www.psia-c.org/performance-short-turns/


Here's another take on it:

 

[jack97]

........ but they arent going to do you alot of good in eastern glades unless the snow is smooth and some what packed.

The glades in southern/mid VT and NH does get packed down with traffic, they essentially become a bump run with trees or bushes stuck in the middle of the bumps. The only time I got to ski powder in the glades is after a storm during school vacation week when the regulars don't want to deal with the crowds and the vacation crowds don't want to venture in.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Well I guess this thread is gonna get closed now.

 

[Josh Matta]

Are you carving medium or longish turns with crossover? Or, short turns with crossunder? For steeper terrain you want to nail your short turns using dynamic crossunder. As the slope increases you will add some brush into the turn, and depending on your skill and strength, that brushing will come earlier for some than others on the same slope.

"Practical limit to slope angle?" Well, there's always a practical limit for slope angle in skiing, maybe ~70+* on a maritime slope, but back to our reality--no reason you can't use dynamic short turns on a 45* slope. As the slope increases from there, these dynamic short turns will look then less and less carved and more edge set to even a hop turn.

Oh, and hard snow ( ice ), just means you need to be lighter on your edges and manage your edge pressure with finesse.

Take a look at this PSIA instruction module:
http://www.psia-c.org/performance-short-turns/


Here's another take on it:

yeah 45 degrees is not that the slope harb is on.....not even close. Most 45 degree runs dont ever see a groomers for starters...

this is about 40 degrees


this is nearing 50 degrees and as far as I know the steepest skiable line off a lift at Stowe. No you cant know where it is.

 

[Tony S]

Well I guess this thread is gonna get closed now.

Yeah, what's with that?

 

[Scruffy]

yeah 45 degrees is not that the slope harb is on.....not even close. Most 45 degree runs dont ever see a groomers for starters...

I can't vouch for what was presented in that Harb video. Yeah, they usually need to winch cat anything over 35*. But it doesn't have to be groomed to use you short turns, right?

this is about 40 degrees

I've lost count of the times I skied Goat. it's never groomed, they couldn't get a groomer in there if they tried. and that's a good thing. Short round turns work good in Goat bumps to, I'm sure you'll agree

 

[Josh Matta]

really depends on the coverage...with good coverage yes, in low snow short rounds turns are no good.

 

[James]

Steepest groomed in Austria is 38-41deg. Depends who's measuring I guess and the snow?
Full on carving on a 40 deg slope? Not a lot of people have the skills and nerves to do more than 1 turn. Speed builds rapidly.

Note: Graham Bell's brother Martin taught at Esa Big Sky years ago. They were both downhillers for the British team in the 80's/90's.

 

[Scruffy]

really depends on the coverage...with good coverage yes, in low snow short rounds turns are no good.

Yes, of course.

 

[Tony S]

Full on carving on a 40 deg slope? Not a lot of people have the skills and neves to do more than 1 turn.

This

 

[Chris V.]

this is nearing 50 degrees and as far as I know the steepest skiable line off a lift at Stowe. No you cant know where it is.

Salt'n'Peppa!

This is not really about carving, LOL.

 

[geepers]

Hmmm... a topic on essentials of carving. And then we're off into all the places we can't (or chose not to) carve. Yes, they exist. But what do we do when there are places to carve?



On thread closure... Kinda reminds me of the story of the grandma looking after her 2 grandsons... At breakfast she asks the eldest boy what he wants for breakfast. "Just some 'effn' corn flakes" he replies. Bam!! Un-PC granny lays him out flat and then without missing a beat turns to the younger boy and asks sweetly what he'd like for breakfast. Youngster replies "I'm not sure but I'm staying clear of those 'effn' corn flakes."

Maybe don't mention Stein Erickson.

 

[razie]

Carving is a state of mind

Until the skis reach a certain angle it won't bite and turn.

Not true. Physics and reality says that the ski edge bites and turns as soon as it is put on edge.

It is true that a lot of beginners do put their skis on edge but continue to slide... conundrum? No. They don't understand yet the relationship between speed, edge angle, timing and turn shape and keep pushing the ski into too short turn shapes or stop creation of edge angles too early.

If you are carving well on a sl radius ski on a narrow black trail you will soon reach a speed at which the turns you can make will exceed the radius a sl ski can cleanly carve. Solutions exist however, GS, SG, and DH skis, or hockey stop and start over.

Disagree. I see it as a matter of skill: each pitch and snow condition combination has a final speed for a given turn shape (a simplistic view would be based on turn radius but it's more complex than that) - that can be verified with simple math and physics as soon as Jamt stops skiing and picks up an internet browser. The skill of the skier determines the turn shape they can carve on that run and snow condition and thus their final speed.

Most skiers can't safely carve a blue run without picking up speed beyond comfortable. Some good ones can control speed on a blue but can't keep a narrow corridor, let alone sustain a 3m corridor on an icy black run. WC skiers do that routinely...

We just also need to consider the athleticism required to put up with the pressures of a real SL carved turn on ice - the one snow condition that throws the most energy back into the skier - all other snow is softer and easier to control speed on.

Happy new year, all!

 

[Tony S]

We just also need to consider the athleticism required to put up with the pressures of a real SL carved turn on ice - the one snow condition that throws the most energy back into the skier - all other snow is softer and easier to control speed on.

This is huge and so ignored here.

 

[no edge]

yeah 45 degrees is not that the slope harb is on.....not even close. Most 45 degree runs dont ever see a groomers for starters...

this is about 40 degrees

this is nearing 50 degrees and as far as I know the steepest skiable line off a lift at Stowe. No you cant know where it is.

Not likely 50* Maybe 40*. Not to start a debate, but go to Tuckermans and it give a good reference point.