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What would you do to rejuvenate K2 skis?
- Thread starter Wasatchman
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So prompted by the bump of this thread a a trip 18 months back in time to see what ill/well informed consulting advice we were giving for free I just took a look at the Euro K2 website.
Wow - what a hot mess! How many ski names and ranges can they chuck at the wall. Not taken on board anything re focus. It seems the Mindbender name has had some positive press so its now attached to no fewer than 12 different models. 56 different models in total plus no doubt some SMU for big box and rental fleets.....shakes head. How many of these are making it to the wall of your local ski shop? Not many I bet.
Now I know there is a commercial relationship with Pugski but I can't see how the brand stays up by diluting the good stuff it does with all that. I know what I want in a ski and literally wouldn't know where to start faced with all that. I'd be clicking straight to Black Crows or Faction or Fischer or whoever for a range I can understand.
Wow - what a hot mess! How many ski names and ranges can they chuck at the wall. Not taken on board anything re focus. It seems the Mindbender name has had some positive press so its now attached to no fewer than 12 different models. 56 different models in total plus no doubt some SMU for big box and rental fleets.....shakes head. How many of these are making it to the wall of your local ski shop? Not many I bet.
Now I know there is a commercial relationship with Pugski but I can't see how the brand stays up by diluting the good stuff it does with all that. I know what I want in a ski and literally wouldn't know where to start faced with all that. I'd be clicking straight to Black Crows or Faction or Fischer or whoever for a range I can understand.
The shop that we help out at, IMHO really dropped the ball on the women's side of the wall with their Mindbender offerings...the ordered the 85c, 88Ti and 90c but not the 98Ti let alone the 106...three skis so close doesn't make sense to stock...now to your point, do they even need all of them in the line? Well, I can see for different markets and how it can be confusing for the consumer, part is to know thy customer. But again to your point, with so many people doing more and more research online before they even step into a store...will they get the information constipation you got and just move over to another brand? Honestly, you cannot be the only one..this is all good feedback.
Not much differentiation among many of the models either. Seems unlikely they can all be making a positive marginal contribution - either to the bottom line or the K2 image.
Within the last year-K2 Introduced the game changing Mindbender series of skis and now boots, continued good sales of their existing skis and boots and coming soon, the Reckoning series of twin tips coming this winter which will transform that market for them too.
Looking at the 2919 listing for K2 Sports revenue, I think they are doing alright....
Looking at the 2919 listing for K2 Sports revenue, I think they are doing alright....
I loved the OG Seth & PE, even the Marksman looks interesting. However- last several years of testing K2s that never made it the retail market has left myself skeptical.
I don’t think with Renoun, Moment, ON3P, Black Crows, WhiteDot..... I’m not certain that I’d buy a K2.
It would seem that a focus on 2-3 models would get em back on track for the serious skier & out of the mass market.
I don’t think with Renoun, Moment, ON3P, Black Crows, WhiteDot..... I’m not certain that I’d buy a K2.
It would seem that a focus on 2-3 models would get em back on track for the serious skier & out of the mass market.
The new K2 is an all different company than it was even three years ago. It all started with the Charger frontside collection, which are indeed world class skis. The Ikonics are good but honestly nothing outstanding in their segment get ready to say bye bye. The Mindbenders are also class leaders or at least reference skis in the highly contested 90, 100 and 108 segments on both the women's and mens side. I will say I am excited to hear what is coming down the road with what Warner Nickerson is working on HERE.
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The even bigger irony is that say among all that shitshow I find a ski that is perfect for me - let's say for the sake of argument the 244 a specialist mogul ski. I click to buy - nope directs me to check at my local ski store. Now I know protect your retailers and all that but I know not a single store on the planet will be carrying all 56 skis, let alone in different sizes and therefore K2 want me to find a local store that stocks K2, educate the retail assistant that yes the ski exists and maybe they should order it for me, who then has to go up chain to the country distributor who hasn't heard of it either and then it becomes a needle in a haystak hunt in warehouses across Europe....
Or I can just click and buy from another smaller nimble brand....
In fairness, that is not just K2 and not limited to the ski industry. Unless a brand is tied into a dealers inventory, that will never work. I do remember of a siutation where @Johnny Style was looking for a specific Descente jacket, he contacted Descente and they told him what stores ordered that jacket.
Meh, do it like Giant: Order whatever the distribution center has, to whatever shop you pick near you.
Greg posted the K2 info, but it's not clear if that is for the K2 Sports group only or for the complete K2-DVM group of Kohlberg & Co.
K2 Sports includes K2, BCA, Ride, Tubbs, Atlas, Line, Full Tilt, and Madshus.
K2-MDV includes all those plus Marker, Dalbello, & Völkl
https://www.kohlberg.com/investment/k2-mdv-holdings-lp/
Kohlberg & Co. is a private equity firm that has owned K2-DVM since 2017. They say: "Since 1987, Kohlberg & Company has been dedicated to investing with integrity to build long term value in middle market companies. We do this by identifying businesses poised for transformation and partnering with superior management teams to support accelerated growth, operational excellence and accretive acquisitions."
https://www.kohlberg.com/investments/
What K2 needs is for the ownership to put in sufficient resources for the development and marketing of great products. It takes talent and it takes money.
K2 Sports includes K2, BCA, Ride, Tubbs, Atlas, Line, Full Tilt, and Madshus.
K2-MDV includes all those plus Marker, Dalbello, & Völkl
https://www.kohlberg.com/investment/k2-mdv-holdings-lp/
Kohlberg & Co. is a private equity firm that has owned K2-DVM since 2017. They say: "Since 1987, Kohlberg & Company has been dedicated to investing with integrity to build long term value in middle market companies. We do this by identifying businesses poised for transformation and partnering with superior management teams to support accelerated growth, operational excellence and accretive acquisitions."
https://www.kohlberg.com/investments/
What K2 needs is for the ownership to put in sufficient resources for the development and marketing of great products. It takes talent and it takes money.
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Yep basically my point - without it the 56 ski range is just an illusion and therefore an utterly pointless waste of everyone's time. Except if you want to carry on being a dinosaur and do things like they've always been done.
We are not talking $3-12K bikes, ski shops need to stock product. For the most part, a skier is not going to wait to order a ski, they usually need/want it right now. If there is a specialty item like the 244 Mogul, they understand that it might have to come from a distribution center.
As far as the dinosaur mentality....welcome to the ski world and I suggest you take a look at the Head catalog, it is 170 pages of skis, boots, poles, helmets, bags, snowboards, goggle, more helmets and almost everything but chewing gum but you seem to be hung up on thinking K2 is the only one.
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I'm not hung up on K2 alone. I've been to SIA and seen the size of the booths chockful of different models a mere fraction of which will ever be available to the 2 or 3 stores a skier might access.
But as this thread started as an open book on what K2 might do to become a winning proposition and they have a huge turnover of staff/ sponsored team etc it seems a shame that they aren't actually doing anything really different. Just relying on the fact that their uptick in design will somehow trickle down.
NB I'm also weighting in the ludicrous fact that Volkl and Line are also the same business ultimately yet they seem unable to carve out the niches in a sensible way. That's Volkl with a mere 76 ski models in their range ( basically being in the race market means moaarrr).
And if I know PE guys someone at Kohlberg is going to be riding someone's ass about why such complexity is necessary and how they are going to boost results for an exit.
But as this thread started as an open book on what K2 might do to become a winning proposition and they have a huge turnover of staff/ sponsored team etc it seems a shame that they aren't actually doing anything really different. Just relying on the fact that their uptick in design will somehow trickle down.
NB I'm also weighting in the ludicrous fact that Volkl and Line are also the same business ultimately yet they seem unable to carve out the niches in a sensible way. That's Volkl with a mere 76 ski models in their range ( basically being in the race market means moaarrr).
And if I know PE guys someone at Kohlberg is going to be riding someone's ass about why such complexity is necessary and how they are going to boost results for an exit.
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Some interesting opinions around these parts. So a company makes a bunch of product, and it's a problem if the local retailer doesn't carry it all, or worse yet, they do. Hmmmm. Best I recall and last I looked, people ski all over the world. Each world region has it's own ski culture, history, geography, topography, and needs. And if 70% of the Volkl buying market are previous Volkl owners, then Volkl has lost it's way and should stop making race skis.... ok. If it's about raw sales figures, then all makers are wasting their time with race product. Screw it. Let's shut down the WC, USSA, etc...
And K2 no longer employs Glen Plake, the Mayers, and doesn't name their skis after a sponsored athlete, they're screwed. I'm waiting for the K2 Nickerson signature front side Rippenbleiber Ti üBergeschwindigkeitbegrandsung series, then they'll be back on track. I hear they're going to be made in the Shinola factory in Detroit by a workforce of vegan urban farmers, and all topsheets will be filled with PV cells so skis can be recycled into solar panel planks for micro grid power infrastructure.
The ski industry is tedious, ne ridiculous for many reasons, but catalogues of varying product for various markets, niches, and narratives driven by finicky and fickle consumer demand that always leaves half the toothpaste in the tube before buying the next with the promise of an ever whiter smile and fewer cavities isn't really the primary problem. If so, let's throw Nordica under the bus for 'enforced' errors and consumer confusion.... 88? 93? 100? 104? 110? 115 pro? Now let's make all the graphics just fade away into each other and change it all every season juuuuuuuust a little bit so retailers can sell stock at 40% off every Feb. 20th.
And why hasn't everything sold by then? Oh, because the retailer brought in too much product, so what goof off buyer couldn't foresee weather forecast? And if there's large sell through, and there's nothing left for labor day sales the following season? Well they've failed the bargain consumer. Yep. Everyone toss our their Enforcer 100's in protest. No one likes their product anymore anyway. We're all saving up for Effluviumfluxripperhosen 101's from the coolest, latest, boutique maker. But man, I wish they'd make a 100 and 3/16th in 3cm increments, and just a little softer in the 183 and 2/3rds because I lost 30 lbs over the summer to be better skier.... And the local retailer sucks because they don't carry them, but whatever. They sold me a boot that's too large online anyway.
Or:
It'll snow soon and this angst will be over the dam and downstream when we're back on the hill sliding around. Now which conglomerate should I support with my pass purchase?
And K2 no longer employs Glen Plake, the Mayers, and doesn't name their skis after a sponsored athlete, they're screwed. I'm waiting for the K2 Nickerson signature front side Rippenbleiber Ti üBergeschwindigkeitbegrandsung series, then they'll be back on track. I hear they're going to be made in the Shinola factory in Detroit by a workforce of vegan urban farmers, and all topsheets will be filled with PV cells so skis can be recycled into solar panel planks for micro grid power infrastructure.
The ski industry is tedious, ne ridiculous for many reasons, but catalogues of varying product for various markets, niches, and narratives driven by finicky and fickle consumer demand that always leaves half the toothpaste in the tube before buying the next with the promise of an ever whiter smile and fewer cavities isn't really the primary problem. If so, let's throw Nordica under the bus for 'enforced' errors and consumer confusion.... 88? 93? 100? 104? 110? 115 pro? Now let's make all the graphics just fade away into each other and change it all every season juuuuuuuust a little bit so retailers can sell stock at 40% off every Feb. 20th.
And why hasn't everything sold by then? Oh, because the retailer brought in too much product, so what goof off buyer couldn't foresee weather forecast? And if there's large sell through, and there's nothing left for labor day sales the following season? Well they've failed the bargain consumer. Yep. Everyone toss our their Enforcer 100's in protest. No one likes their product anymore anyway. We're all saving up for Effluviumfluxripperhosen 101's from the coolest, latest, boutique maker. But man, I wish they'd make a 100 and 3/16th in 3cm increments, and just a little softer in the 183 and 2/3rds because I lost 30 lbs over the summer to be better skier.... And the local retailer sucks because they don't carry them, but whatever. They sold me a boot that's too large online anyway.
Or:
It'll snow soon and this angst will be over the dam and downstream when we're back on the hill sliding around. Now which conglomerate should I support with my pass purchase?
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Nice rant. But you've summarised why the corporate ski industry and the consumer are a tough fit.
Given K2 have had the opportunity to "reboot" my point is that they haven't yet done anything radical.
I think the ski industry isn't actually that sophisticated - everyone has moaned for years about NGT and savvy buyers have always tracked the annual stock level saga. Bearing in mind that people who get deep into equipment chat here are the fringe nerds. There just may be a perfect ski for an individual, the hill they ski and the weather but the breadth of the industry offering makes it an utter lottery whether they'll ever find it. Obviously the Pugski review approach points people in the right direction for a shortlist at least, commendably. But we all know that at the end of the day its about the skier not the skis.
Given K2 have had the opportunity to "reboot" my point is that they haven't yet done anything radical.
I think the ski industry isn't actually that sophisticated - everyone has moaned for years about NGT and savvy buyers have always tracked the annual stock level saga. Bearing in mind that people who get deep into equipment chat here are the fringe nerds. There just may be a perfect ski for an individual, the hill they ski and the weather but the breadth of the industry offering makes it an utter lottery whether they'll ever find it. Obviously the Pugski review approach points people in the right direction for a shortlist at least, commendably. But we all know that at the end of the day its about the skier not the skis.