What would happen if you applied a thin layer of wax and skied without scraping it?

[ScotsSkier]

My takeaway here (but then I was a believer already) is that one should be generous with both soft and storage-grade waxes. Everyone around here seems to favor minimalist approaches - I say put it on!

yes, we have a winner!. Why risk the bases of an expensive ski for a $ of wax???!!!

 

[James]

Here's a video on some of the Red Creek brushes. It concerns cross country skis but the info is the same.

 

[Marker]

Just be aware that wax companies recommend one allows the wax to cool completely and setup properly.
From Dominator. The use of the term "cards" is an analogy used previously in the document.
Delivering wax to the base: The time element
Sufficient time must be allowed between ironing and scraping: When the wax is melted (liquid), the cards are in random positions, away from each other. As the wax cools and solidifies, the cards are on top of each other but they are not stacked well and internal friction is high. After some time the cards organize themselves to the tight deck and the minimum internal friction. The cooling must be slow, if it happens too quickly (like taking a warm ski outside) the cards freeze in a position that has higher internal friction. Typical “cooling” times between ironing and scraping are overnight for very soft waxes, three hours for normal (pink, universal) waxes, one hour for cold range waxes, and around 15 minutes for extreme cold waxes. If sufficient waiting time is not available, paste or rub-on waxes are the best options.
-pg 14
https://www.dominatorwax.com/sites/default/files/dominator/wax-science-demystified.pdf

Here's a video on some of the Red Creek brushes. It concerns cross country skis but the info is the same.

As an organic chemist, the first part of the video is interesting to me as it reinforces my view of wax, that it permeates the amorphous domains of the semi-crystalline ptex to modify the base. But if this is the case, and we should strive to remove the excess wax off the exposed base as the video makes clear, then the Dominator posting on "cards" doesn't make much sense. A paraffin wax molecule encased in the amorphous domain doesn't have the free volume or degrees of freedom to properly align with other wax molecules to form the organized structure that is implied by "cards". "Amorphous" designates that the molecular chains in these domains are randomly organized and not "crystalline", which is organized as it gets! Perhaps the formation of cards on the surface of the base is for making the scraping of cooled wax easier, or easier to brush it out of the structure?

And what of the use Fiberlene? The Dominator posting doesn't seem to take this approach into account. As an "intermediate" waxer, tuner, and skier, I may not understand how it is properly done, but it saves me a lot of time and I haven't really noticed much difference in glide vs scraping.

 

[James]

And what of the use Fiberlene? The Dominator posting doesn't seem to take this approach into account.

Meaning under a hot iron so one gets a thin film? It would seem based on Dominator's info that's a better approach then scraping without sufficient cooling time. Probably just scrape the metal edges. However, based on your amorphous info, don't know. A guy from Dominator used to post on epicski some years ago.

Can you explain wax and the amorphous zones?

Beware your black scrapings. It's probably carbon black and not dirt. Assuming a black base.

"If you use a hot iron on a soft, low-melt-point paraffin, it is very easy to destabilize the amorphous materials in the base. This will cause you to scrape black wax shavings. Very satisfying if you’ve somehow convinced yourself that you’re removing “dirt”. But that’s not what’s happening. You’re removing carbon-blacking, and whatever other additive materials are in the base. Once the base is destabilized in this way, it tends to stay destabilized..."

Under Problem 2:
http://www.caldwellsport.com/2012/02/removing-fluorocarbons/

Amazingly, it seems like waxing isn't well understood from a scientific standpoint.

 

[Wilhelmson]

I know I don't like liver because I try it once a year and hate it. I know scraping makes a difference but not a big one because I've skied with unscraped skis. But I don't get a grind every year or freak over a small scratch, get my boots canted, tune my iron, etc. I use either swix ch4 or hot sauce and mix it up. Use ch4 for a storage wax so the bases are hard and ready to go in November. After soaking in all summer it wasn't even worth trying to scrape that stuff off.

I tune, scrape and brush the old wax, crayon cold wax, drip sufficient wax, iron between 10 and 15 passes, then let them sit until I get around to scraping and brushing, then repeat for the other 3 or 4 pairs of skis. Once in a while I'll lay them down next to a radiator to maybe help the wax penetrate.

 

[Living Proof]

As a hard snow east coast skier, it is easy to ski without removing a thin coat of wax. My nightmare experience was was at Targhee when the skis I waxed the night before, but, did not scrape, encountered 8" of new powder resulting in absolutely no glide. Talk about frustrating, all that great snow..and I was a "no-go". I went right to the repair shop and borrowed a scraping tool, and, all became very good.

 

[Wilhelmson]

That's Living Proof, even if he's from Philly.

 

[Jacques]

I suspect you have not tried it.

A friend showed up one day with thick storage wax on his skis. "oh shit" "forgot to scrape". I thought he ought to do the ski edge method at least, but he went up, and we headed down a cat track----not particularly abrasive snow, not high speeds, but his skis were fine right from the start, out gliding 90% of the people out there.


I frequently don't scrape now, particularly for warmer snow. It usually works fine. On some snow the middle of the tips and tails still has a thick layer when done. I out glide just about all the skiers who seldom wax

Your friend and you must weigh a lot! Let me guess. 180 to 190 Lbs. Gravity?

 

[Jacques]

Here's a video on some of the Red Creek brushes. It concerns cross country skis but the info is the same.

I better not embed this video! I have been given restrictions for that, but here is a link to proper scraping and brushing.

 

[newfydog]

Your friend and you must weigh a lot! Let me guess. 180 to 190 Lbs. Gravity?

Nope. About 145. Experienced racer. We went up Skyliner lift and headed down the crossover to the base of Summit. His skis were rocket fast.

 

[Wolfski]

Wax on...Wax off...its just the way you do it

 

[Jacques]

Nope. About 145. Experienced racer. We went up Skyliner lift and headed down the crossover to the base of Summit. His skis were rocket fast.

That's incredible! Some people.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Jacques, I'm just goofing around here becuase your videos are great. But of course you would always scrape, in fact here's the abridged version of the video.

Minutes 1 through 5, inspects the ski base.
5 through 10, sharpens the plexi scraper on various substrates, only to discard it for a different scraper.
10 through 15, shapens the different scraper
15 through 35 scrapes (tip to tail only, sometimes you got to bend it a little)
35 thorugh 40 sharpend the scraper some more
40 through 60 more scraping, then some more after that
60 through 65 break time to take a leak
65 through 70 talk about brushes
70 through 80 brush with the steel brush (make sure to get edges)
80 through 85 brush some more with the steel brush
85 through 95 brush wiht bronze brush
95 through 105 brush with a different bronze brush
105 through 120 brush with some plastic, some horsehair, some fine horsehair,
DONE!

 

[ScotsSkier]

Jacques, I'm just goofing around here becuase your videos are great. But of course you would always scrape, in fact here's the abridged version of the video.

Minutes 1 through 5, inspects the ski base.
5 through 10, sharpens the plexi scraper on various substrates, only to discard it for a different scraper.
10 through 15, shapens the different scraper
15 through 35 scrapes (tip to tail only, sometimes you got to bend it a little)
35 thorugh 40 sharpend the scraper some more
40 through 60 more scraping, then some more after that
60 through 65 break time to take a leak
65 through 70 talk about brushes
70 through 80 brush with the steel brush (make sure to get edges)
80 through 85 brush some more with the steel brush
85 through 95 brush wiht bronze brush
95 through 105 brush with a different bronze brush
105 through 120 brush with some plastic, some horsehair, some fine horsehair,
DONE!

BOOM!!! thread closed!

 

[cantunamunch]

BOOM!!! thread closed!

+1. It's starting to sound like people are about to post about their soaking wetness.

I have zero need and less wish to read about that.

 

[Marker]

Meaning under a hot iron so one gets a thin film? It would seem based on Dominator's info that's a better approach then scraping without sufficient cooling time. Probably just scrape the metal edges. However, based on your amorphous info, don't know. A guy from Dominator used to post on epicski some years ago.

Can you explain wax and the amorphous zones?

Beware your black scrapings. It's probably carbon black and not dirt. Assuming a black base.

"If you use a hot iron on a soft, low-melt-point paraffin, it is very easy to destabilize the amorphous materials in the base. This will cause you to scrape black wax shavings. Very satisfying if you’ve somehow convinced yourself that you’re removing “dirt”. But that’s not what’s happening. You’re removing carbon-blacking, and whatever other additive materials are in the base. Once the base is destabilized in this way, it tends to stay destabilized..."

Under Problem 2:
http://www.caldwellsport.com/2012/02/removing-fluorocarbons/

Amazingly, it seems like waxing isn't well understood from a scientific standpoint.

Yes, I use the towels under the iron, and it appears to me to leave a thin layer of wax. At least, some will come off with a brass brush like in your posted video. So I guess I normally do leave a very thin layer wax on that gets skied off! I'll grab a very soft wooden shim from the home improvement section of my man cave and use that to scrap wax off the edges. I also try to keep the iron temperature down during waxing so I don't destabilize the base. I think I heard that from Jacques. I sometimes get a little black in the molten wax, not all the time, so I assumed it was dirt or abraded base material. One set of my skis have mostly black bases with short sections of clear ptex near the tip, where I can see the build up and removal of a little dirt.

Yes, there has been quite a bit of debate about wax science, mostly over on Epic, but I don't claim to be an expert in that specific field. However, since I got my PhD in organic chemistry, I've worked with polymer and material scientist and engineers and have learned a lot from them in 30 years. Small molecules, like wax molecules, can easily diffuse through semi-crystalline polymers like the ultra-high molecular polyethylene used to manufacture ptex bases, and Spectra and Dynemma fibers used in bullet-proof vests. Heat certainly helps, as I saw a few weeks ago on a polymer film project I'm currently working on. Synthetic textile fibers are dyed by dye molecules diffusing into their amorphous domains; this is not rocket science. I didn't look it up, but ptex is probably about 40 % crystalline domains, which are not permeable, and 60 % amorphous domains; together these are commonly referred to as "microstructure". Some polymers can achieve much higher percent crystallinity upon orientation, like the polyethylene in Spectra fiber. Crystallization of the polyethylene creates strength, which increases with the molecular weight of the polyethylene. Crystallization also creates more free volume in the amorphous domains left behind and wax molecules can permeate those domains to fill the free volume. Since wax is chemically similar to ptex bases in structure (aliphatic chains, -CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-...), there is a natural affinity for each other. It takes time for wax molecules to diffuse deep into the base, thus the need for repetitive cycles, heat, and softer prep waxes with lower molecular weights, and apparently they don't go as deep as we would like to think based on their loss after base grinds. I would hazard a guess that these small wax molecules help to open up the microstructure in the base enabling the higher molecular weight hard waxes to diffuse more easily into the base.

Today is a Safety Day at my company, and we are not supposed to do real work, so apparently I have too much time on my hands now that its the end of the day...

 

[Jacques]

Jacques, I'm just goofing around here becuase your videos are great. But of course you would always scrape, in fact here's the abridged version of the video.

Minutes 1 through 5, inspects the ski base.
5 through 10, sharpens the plexi scraper on various substrates, only to discard it for a different scraper.
10 through 15, shapens the different scraper
15 through 35 scrapes (tip to tail only, sometimes you got to bend it a little)
35 thorugh 40 sharpend the scraper some more
40 through 60 more scraping, then some more after that
60 through 65 break time to take a leak
65 through 70 talk about brushes
70 through 80 brush with the steel brush (make sure to get edges)
80 through 85 brush some more with the steel brush
85 through 95 brush wiht bronze brush
95 through 105 brush with a different bronze brush
105 through 120 brush with some plastic, some horsehair, some fine horsehair,
DONE!

Just wondering what video you are referring to above. Couldn't be my scraping and brushing videos. I have two. Neither is 120 minutes long.
Plus I never have sharpened a plastic scraper. Anyway, wondering who made a 120 minute scraping and brushing video. I must see it!
That said I do hold claim to the worlds longest ski hand tuning video at over 5 hours long!

 

[Jacques]

Yes, I use the towels under the iron, and it appears to me to leave a thin layer of wax. At least, some will come off with a brass brush like in your posted video. So I guess I normally do leave a very thin layer wax on that gets skied off! I'll grab a very soft wooden shim from the home improvement section of my man cave and use that to scrap wax off the edges. I also try to keep the iron temperature down during waxing so I don't destabilize the base. I think I heard that from Jacques. I sometimes get a little black in the molten wax, not all the time, so I assumed it was dirt or abraded base material. One set of my skis have mostly black bases with short sections of clear ptex near the tip, where I can see the build up and removal of a little dirt.

Yes, there has been quite a bit of debate about wax science, mostly over on Epic, but I don't claim to be an expert in that specific field. However, since I got my PhD in organic chemistry, I've worked with polymer and material scientist and engineers and have learned a lot from them in 30 years. Small molecules, like wax molecules, can easily diffuse through semi-crystalline polymers like the ultra-high molecular polyethylene used to manufacture ptex bases, and Spectra and Dynemma fibers used in bullet-proof vests. Heat certainly helps, as I saw a few weeks ago on a polymer film project I'm currently working on. Synthetic textile fibers are dyed by dye molecules diffusing into their amorphous domains; this is not rocket science. I didn't look it up, but ptex is probably about 40 % crystalline domains, which are not permeable, and 60 % amorphous domains; together these are commonly referred to as "microstructure". Some polymers can achieve much higher percent crystallinity upon orientation, like the polyethylene in Spectra fiber. Crystallization of the polyethylene creates strength, which increases with the molecular weight of the polyethylene. Crystallization also creates more free volume in the amorphous domains left behind and wax molecules can permeate those domains to fill the free volume. Since wax is chemically similar to ptex bases in structure (aliphatic chains, -CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-...), there is a natural affinity for each other. It takes time for wax molecules to diffuse deep into the base, thus the need for repetitive cycles, heat, and softer prep waxes with lower molecular weights, and apparently they don't go as deep as we would like to think based on their loss after base grinds. I would hazard a guess that these small wax molecules help to open up the microstructure in the base enabling the higher molecular weight hard waxes to diffuse more easily into the base.

Today is a Safety Day at my company, and we are not supposed to do real work, so apparently I have too much time on my hands now that its the end of the day...

You are a smart guy! Getting wax a few mills deeper will make for a better base, that will glide better and not burn so fast.