What to Ski in 2020

[James]

Here’s the information I’m seeking. My current on piste ski is the Volkl 84 RTM, 2013 edition. My powder ski is Rossi Super7. I want to replace the volkl’s with a cambered ski. I’m considering the Blizzard Brahma, Volkl Kendo, and Nordica Enforcer 93. I’ve not been able to demo any of these skis although I’ve skied the Blizzard Cochise (too much ski) and the Enforcer 100 (want to be narrower). The Dynastar 88 and Blizzard Rustler 9/10 are also thoughts.

Not sure why we're up that far in width as the M5 anyway.
How about the Rossi E84? I only skied tbe 88.

 

[Seldomski]

I think OP should get a ski 76-84 mm underfoot ski with radius of 16-19m, with a little bit of rocker (for bit of off piste versatility) and camber underfoot. Likely also desirable to have a tail that is a little rounded, not square, to allow smearing more easily.

There are a bunch of skis with those specs, including the past few years of Volkl RTM. For whatever reason, marketing pushrd skis in the 85-100mm range. Those skis can work on groomers, but if all you are skiing is groomers and bumps, the wider skis don't provide much benefit and require more work to put on edge. Some like the feel of the wider skis on groomers. But I don't think the OP is after that sensation...

Stiffest to noodliest (that I have personally tried)
Volkl RTM 84 2018
Stockli Laser AX (2019) or AR (2020). I have not tried the AR. Both are $$$$$
Atomic Vantage 83 CTi

 

[ski otter 2]

If the OP is considering a deal on the cambered RTMs before they're gone, might I suggest the RTM 86? I know, locally, Larson's in Wheatridge, CO has them from this and the last three years, on sale for probably $550 to $675 or so (I didn't look too closely, but saw them there.) They are not a real discount outlet, so there may be a better price out there also. But Larson's has a big presence online, though I've never gone to their site myself, just gone to their brick and mortar location.

To me, the 86 was damper and with a better flex pattern than the 84 in particular, thus had a more dialed in carve for the front side and mild bumps, and skied with more finesse. Overall, a more refined, dialed in ski, at least for me - mostly on the frontside.

I've been told that the reason for so many RTMs was actually to meet various price points - so that a customer with a set price in mind would be more likely to find one of these skis slotted in at his or her price point. Honest. (I was told this by the buyer for one of the largest volume ski dealers in the country, who is someone I enjoy talking to endlessly, so I believe him.) The only possible exception, he said, was the RTM 86. This ski was Volkl's top of the line ski of this sort, I was told: the price was to actually cover their best work.

 

[ski otter 2]

I think at least part of the reason people brought up the M5 was that the OP had included the Brahma, Kendo, Enforcer 93, and the Blizzard 9/10s, as skis he was considering. These are all very comparable frontside to the M5, and in fact, for many of us, the M5 outdoes all or almost all of those skis on groomers and frontside, with the possible exception, to me, of the Brahma, as mentioned previously - even though the M5 is more outside his later-mentioned target range of close to 84, which makes sense to me.

Hmm.. I wish I had a chance to try the v-werks.. I just looked up their weight at 186cm.. 1727 grams?!!? https://www.evo.com/guides/alpine-and-backcountry-ski-weights#2019 That's incredible. They must be light as a feather. Do you do a lot of touring / backcountry?

No, just a resort guy. Wrong ski maybe here I now realize, the V-Werks skis work backcountry but are designed for resort, though quick, and don't give up anything due to weight. They are different, however. To me, they beat the M5 in crud and slush, and are roughly equal on groomers.

I have to say, it's hard for me to apply these to Idaho, which is more Pacific Northwest like than I'd figured, I've learned here. Coastal concrete. I'd have to guess that the V-Werks Mantra is just a bit looser on edge, for such an application, whereas there is little loss of edge, and a lot of gain in versatility, with this ski here in Colorado. (As mentioned the V-Werks skis kill powder crud and spring slush. The V-W Mantra is crazy quick edge to edge in bumps, more so than even the Brahma, to me, and compared to a normal frontside ski; and it holds an edge on groomers wonderfully - if tuned right.)

Note: apologies to the OP, but after the seventh try, my V-Werks Mantras are finally right, or very close to it. The advice from the Volkl rep who tuned that ski for SIA proved decisive: man, what fun! Thank Heavens!

(If anyone should get one of the latest V-Werks skis, and has trouble with the tune, I'd be glad to share what fixed it.)

 

[James]

but after the seventh try, my V-Werks Mantras are finally right, or very close to it. The advice from the Volkl rep who tuned that ski for SIA proved decisive:

Yes, please tell.
I had a conversation recently about the V werks skis at a shop. The shop guys were pretty negative on the quality and endurance. The skis are so thin near the edge.

 

[Vinnie]

The OP is the PNW, lots of compacted wet hard pan. I find that type of snow is very hard on the lower legs. Much more stressful than NE hard pack/ice. A non-cambered ski is just brutal on that type of snow. The 2013 RTM is rockered but non-cambered. Not a good match.

A cambered ski would provide much better suspension and in turn reduce impact to the lower leg.

OP is in Idaho which gets gets much drier snow than the Cascades.

 

[Vinnie]

Also look into Fischer Pro Mtn 86 Ti. I ski the Motive which is the previous model. Fischer doesn’t get the hype of other brands as a result you should be able to get a really good deal on them at this time of year. It’s an all-mountain ski with a frontside bias.

 

[James]

OP is in Idaho which gets gets much drier snow than the Cascades.

Yes, but somehow he relates.
King Grump:
The OP is the PNW, lots of compacted wet hard pan. I find that type of snow is very hard on the lower legs. Much more stressful than NE hard pack/ice. A non-cambered ski is just brutal on that type of snow. The 2013 RTM is rockered but non-cambered. Not a good match.
A cambered ski would provide much better suspension and in turn reduce impact to the lower leg.

OP:
You understand! Thanks.

 

[Vinnie]

Yes, but somehow he relates.
King Grump:
The OP is the PNW, lots of compacted wet hard pan. I find that type of snow is very hard on the lower legs. Much more stressful than NE hard pack/ice. A non-cambered ski is just brutal on that type of snow. The 2013 RTM is rockered but non-cambered. Not a good match.
A cambered ski would provide much better suspension and in turn reduce impact to the lower leg.

OP:
You understand! Thanks.

That’s what matters!

 

[ski otter 2]

Yes, please tell.
I had a conversation recently about the V werks skis at a shop. The shop guys were pretty negative on the quality and endurance. The skis are so thin near the edge.

It's kind of shocking that at the annual, national SIA convention and demo in February, many of the ski brands were poorly tuned, or at least mis-tuned in ways that were hopefully obvious. This year, not Volkl. Their tuning was tops, and not by accident.

At Copper Mtn. recently, the Volkl rep in charge of ski prep for SIA told me that first, their demo skis were run through a Montana, not a Wintersteiger, at a local Colorado shop with two top operators they knew personally - guys who really knew their stuff. He named them, but I don't recall that detail. (I remember the location, if interested.) He made clear that most operators, of even the Montana, don't know beans, and he wouldn't trust them with his skis; and also, that the Montana is a better machine, for his purposes, than the Wintersteiger, whoever the operator; even though back at Volkl headquarters, most of the skis are prepped on a Wintersteiger, albeit by experts on that.

If done right, and not at a time when the operators are overburdened with an assembly line of skis to do, the right machine base-flattening actually succeeds or comes close to getting the skis flat, whereas normally, a machine base flattening tends to leave all but the narrowest of skis at least a bit rail high, if lucky. This is understatement on my part, based on my own experiences over the years. At least here in Colorado.

(In place of this machine work, I'd hand-flattened the base in from the rails over an inch the entire edge length, and for most of it, almost perfectly flat, in my desperation: more exact than I'd have to do except for race skis, normally.)

Second, the Volkl rep then went over each ski by hand, in a full on tune routine, with a double check on the Montana machine results included. He showed me his tool box with a full assortment of tools I was familiar with (and also own), there on hand at the ski slope. The V-W Mantras in particular, he said, required extra effort to set the edge bevels @ 1°/2°. By the way he said this, he meant an unusual amount of extra effort, for whatever reasons.

Last, he said that the V-W skis, presumably especially the Mantras, often required cutting back on the thin sidewall material above the edges, quite a bit. Otherwise, that sidewall is so thin and sharp that if the manufacturing is off, it can act like a second, hanging edge above the real edge. This is especially the case when you carve by laying the ski over properly, as he could see I did (me being on Rossi FIS 165 slalom skis at the time). Yikes!

I can attest that trying to unknowingly carve such a parallel double edge is an unpleasant surprise, kinda hard.

(I usually only do such extra sidewall removal when the sidewall is likely to interfere with cutting the side edge bevel, which in this case hadn't happened. Also, these days lots of folks like the sidewall to be beveled flush with the edge, presumably at the same bevel angle - not what is needed, in this case.)

I can confirm what the rep said by the results.

I'd anticipated the first and second tips, mostly, almost - after base flattening, I'd already spent much more than twice the normal time setting the edge bevels (because of the skis being so rail high initially, and because of the unusual arch to the skis). After taking the rep's advice, I ended up spending even more time on the 1°/2° bevels, with extra care as well. Also, I used a standard 7° bevel edge tool to take back the thin sidewall material, such as it was. This too proved necessary, probably decisive. Thanks, Volkl rep!

Now the skis are fun and better than normal.


Notes & background:

I can sympathize with the ski brand guys at SIA - it ain't easy to tune so many skis well in such a short time. A real challenge.

I can sure agree with the shop folk you talked to, @James , as far as quality and ski prep of the V-Werks skis most recently. But I've had good luck with the durability of our three V-Werks Katanas so far (two 184s, one 191), shared between me and my son, etc., over 2-5 seasons, variously. None of these skis had manufacturing/prep problems when I first got them: they skied great out of the wrap.

Admittedly, I'm not hard on my skis, and generally have two to five year old skis look almost new routinely, even though they've seen lots of days on snow. (In the case of my first Katanas, roughly 200 days of use, more or less, so far.)

 

[James]

It's kind of shocking that at the annual, national SIA convention and demo in February, many of the ski brands were poorly tuned, or at least mis-tuned in ways that were hopefully obvious. This year, not Volkl. Their tuning was tops, and not by accident.

At Copper Mtn. recently, the Volkl rep in charge of ski prep for SIA told me that first, their demo skis were run through a Montana, not a Wintersteiger, at a local Colorado shop with two top operators they knew personally - guys who really knew their stuff. He named them, but I don't recall that detail. (I remember the location, if interested.) He made clear that most operators, of even the Montana, don't know beans, and he wouldn't trust them with his skis; and also, that the Montana is a better machine, for his purposes, than the Wintersteiger, whoever the operator; even though back at Volkl headquarters, most of the skis are prepped on a Wintersteiger, albeit by experts on that.

If done right, and not at a time when the operators are overburdened with an assembly line of skis to do, the right machine base-flattening actually succeeds or comes close to getting the skis flat, whereas normally, a machine base flattening tends to leave all but the narrowest of skis at least a bit rail high, if lucky. This is understatement on my part, based on my own experiences over the years. At least here in Colorado.

(In place of this machine work, I'd hand-flattened the base in from the rails over an inch the entire edge length, and for most of it, almost perfectly flat, in my desperation: more exact than I'd have to do except for race skis, normally.)

Second, the Volkl rep then went over each ski by hand, in a full on tune routine, with a double check on the Montana machine results included. He showed me his tool box with a full assortment of tools I was familiar with (and also own), there on hand at the ski slope. The V-W Mantras in particular, he said, required extra effort to set the edge bevels @ 1°/2°. By the way he said this, he meant an unusual amount of extra effort, for whatever reasons.

Last, he said that the V-W skis, presumably especially the Mantras, often required cutting back on the thin sidewall material above the edges, quite a bit. Otherwise, that sidewall is so thin and sharp that if the manufacturing is off, it can act like a second, hanging edge above the real edge. This is especially the case when you carve by laying the ski over properly, as he could see I did (me being on Rossi FIS 165 slalom skis at the time). Yikes!

I can attest that trying to unknowingly carve such a parallel double edge is an unpleasant surprise, kinda hard.

(I usually only do such extra sidewall removal when the sidewall is likely to interfere with cutting the side edge bevel, which in this case hadn't happened. Also, these days lots of folks like the sidewall to be beveled flush with the edge, presumably at the same bevel angle - not what is needed, in this case.)

I can confirm what the rep said by the results.

I'd anticipated the first and second tips, mostly, almost - after base flattening, I'd already spent much more than twice the normal time setting the edge bevels (because of the skis being so rail high initially, and because of the unusual arch to the skis). After taking the rep's advice, I ended up spending even more time on the 1°/2° bevels, with extra care as well. Also, I used a standard 7° bevel edge tool to take back the thin sidewall material, such as it was. This too proved necessary, probably decisive. Thanks, Volkl rep!

Now the skis are fun and better than normal.


Notes & background:

I can sympathize with the ski brand guys at SIA - it ain't easy to tune so many skis well in such a short time. A real challenge.

I can sure agree with the shop folk you talked to, @James , as far as quality and ski prep of the V-Werks skis most recently. But I've had good luck with the durability of our three V-Werks Katanas so far (two 184s, one 191), shared between me and my son, etc., over 2-5 seasons, variously. None of these skis had manufacturing/prep problems when I first got them: they skied great out of the wrap.

Admittedly, I'm not hard on my skis, and generally have two to five year old skis look almost new routinely, even though they've seen lots of days on snow. (In the case of my first Katanas, roughly 200 days of use, more or less, so far.)

Even on the best machines with the best operator, apparently there are days or times when it works better. I knew someone who used to work in one of the best tuning shops in the east. Sometimes the owner would say to them "today's the day to do your skis" because it was running so well. And that was a really good shop. Never once had a bad grind in dozens from them.

 

[ski otter 2]

Even on the best machines with the best operator, apparently there are days or times when it works better. I knew someone who used to work in one of the best tuning shops in the east. Sometimes the owner would say to them "today's the day to do your skis" because it was running so well. And that was a really good shop. Never once had a bad grind in dozens from them.

In less than a half dozen base grinds over the past six years, never had a good one. And my experience here is in line with that of the above mentioned Volkl tech.

 

[James]

In less than a half dozen base grinds over the past six years, never had a good one. And my experience here is in line with that of the above mentioned Volkl tech.

There's a reason many in the East were very upset when Edgewise in Stowe stopped business. A huge hole. They were ultra reliable. Despite the proliferation of machines costing $250-450k, it doesn't guarantee much.

 

[Kyle]

In less than a half dozen base grinds over the past six years, never had a good one.

The troubling thing about this quote is that I am not sure whether I would know if I had a good base grind or a bad one.

 

[ski otter 2]

The troubling thing about this quote is that I am not sure whether I would know if I had a good base grind or a bad one.

I can relate to this. I tune and base flatten my own skis well - and those of family and friends - and have done so for at least 50 years, yet have given up on a few skis and gotten rid of them when I just know that with the right suggestion or technique, those skis might suddenly be fine, just as were the V-Werks Mantras after seven tries.

I used to occasionally buy skis on ebay fairly cheaply and then have a bargain when I fixed them, usually in an evening. Too much elbow grease now that I'm getting older.

 

[ski otter 2]

There's a reason many in the East were very upset when Edgewise in Stowe stopped business. A huge hole. They were ultra reliable. Despite the proliferation of machines costing $250-450k, it doesn't guarantee much.

With my bad grinds, it was a different place each time, except for one repeat poor tune at a place that offered to make good on their work - not. They had amazing explanations why the base got worse each time instead of better.

Where were your base flattening grinds done? In Europe? Back East?

From what I can gather, maybe in some places shops have better results and expertise, generally, maybe from more icy conditions requiring more exacting results? Dunno. Your above example of Edgewise closing leaving a hole seems to indicate that great back East places may not be as common as I'd been told by some.

But my poor experiences here in Colorado are matched, not just by those of the above Volkl tech, but also many other folks I've talked to (though by no means all). It was not an accident that some of the brands at SIA had skis across the board that were poorly tuned, even when their livelihoods depended on it: when I asked where they'd had their skis done, the answers were with shops I or others have had bad tunes - and dishonest denials, also - repeatedly in the past.

 

[dovski]

I can relate to the bad grind. I had several pairs of skis tuned at a reputable shop in Sun Peaks last year. These guys are known for their race tunes, yet they managed to butcher my skis so much so that my regular shop back home had to do about 15 passes on their machine just to get my bases flat again. They also forgot to finish off the edges on my daughters skis when they tuned them. Good thing I caught that in time or I would have had a very angry girl on my hands. Based on this experience I only take my skis into shops with automated machines that have computer control, auto balancing … etc. I know some folks are artists with the hand fed machines but everyone has an off day. With the newer machines that are computer controlled I find you get a much more accurate and consistent tune, you can also get some really amazing structure put into the base.

 

[tball]

I have read up on the Nordica Navigator someone suggested earlier. As near as I can tell, the Navigator is considered an “intermediate level” ski. While I’m a well advanced skier, I must consider I’m getting older and a little more reserved going downhill so there’s that to consider too.

The Navigator is not an intermediate level ski. It's an easy turning friendly ski that is fun to ski slow, medium and fast, at least below speeds I'm hoping you are not hitting at 71 yrs.

I wrote a little mini-review after skiing my Navigatior 80's in all conditions, saying "they worked fantastic if I just pulled back the throttle to maybe 70-90% depending on the terrain and conditions.":
https://www.pugski.com/threads/all-mountain-ski-that-is-great-in-the-bumps.14780/page-2#post-352480

A few more threads to read about the Navigators:
https://www.pugski.com/threads/nordica-navigator-90.13825/
https://www.pugski.com/threads/nordica-navigator-90-vs-rossignol-experience-88-ti.11906/
https://www.pugski.com/threads/long-term-review-2018-nordica-navigator-85.3947/

And, they are on sale for $299 from a site sponsor (other sizes are for sale elsewhere for the same price if 179 isn't right):
http://www.skiessentials.com/skis/view-by-year/2017-18-skis/2018-nordica-navigator-80-skis.html

Or, the Navigator 85 with bindings for $399 (I don't know anything about these bindings):
http://www.skiessentials.com/2018-nordica-navigator-85-fdt-skis-w-squier-11-fdt-bindings.html

 

[lvlcrank]

You might be able to find an old Nordica NRGY 80 or 90 still unmourned and fresh. I’ve got the 80s, and they’re fantastic. They’re fairly stiff, but still light enough to toss around in the air (not that that’s your thing). They rail groomers without chatter, and still have an all mountain shape so they handle bumps perfectly (not too stiff a tail, and decent taper).