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Chris V.

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Here's a topic for some fun discussion.

You can close and open your ankles. This movement tilts the lower leg forward or upright, thus moving the knee fore-aft.
...

What do you do with your ankles as you ski?
Instructors, do you teach your clients to do anything with their ankles?

Start with just this one.

Some things come naturally--or should, if intimidation doesn't get in the way. Other things, no. So, walking around on skis on the flats should come naturally. If students don't let themselves get freaked out by the fact that snow is slippery, and they might skid a bit (oh, the horror), it's a lot like walking around in street shoes. Pick up one foot, then the other. Move the body over the foot that you've moved and set down. Balance on one foot at a time. All good skills to have available when skiing.

But...in important ways skiing is very different from walking, or from just about any other movement that people do in their daily lives or are naturally adapted to do. And these differences largely come down to how we use our feet and ankles. While it's true that we want to be balanced dominantly on one ski, most of the time, we ordinarily accomplish this while keeping our feet (through the medium of our skis) both planted on the snow at the same time, all the time. We keep our feet close to one another, fore-aft. This changes only modestly through the turn cycle. We don't want a lot of random, unproductive movements of the feet. Beginners want to shuffle their feet. It can take some work to cure them of this.

Walking consists of pushing ourselves off with one foot, and then catching ourselves from falling with the other foot, repeatedly. For each foot, it's plantar flexion to push off, followed by a momentary release of all tension while the foot is in the air, followed by progressive dorsiflexion with the muscles in eccentric tension, as we cushion the impact and slow our body mass from being pulled into the ground. A rapid cycle involving repeated flexion and extension, and repeated application and release of tension. In skiing, we want to slow all of this down, and simultaneously adopt a posture that is far more flexed in the ankle (and in the other joints) than our usual standing, resting posture. This is a challenge for new skiers. Their instinct is to stand tall--inappropriate. Their instinct, when they feel resistance from the fronts of the skis, is to react with muscular plantar flexion, as they would when walking or running to keep themselves from falling forward--unnecessary in skiing. Their instinct, in moments at which they feel little resistance from the skis in any direction, is to let their feet and ankles go rather limp--which can lead to the stance deteriorating, and leaves them ill prepared to react quickly to the forces that the mountain will soon be rapidly throwing at them.

The functions of strong plantar flexion in skiing are rather limited. I would say that they are principally (1) for reacting to variations in terrain, for the purpose of restoring balance, and (2) for jumping. Those who use extension in transition are using plantar flexion for that purpose--but I'm in the school that would ordinarily like to use flexion in transition.

So, I would teach students:

(1) Maintain functional tension in the feet and ankles at all times. I like the Squaw Valley coach Ron Kipp's video on this subject. Not to say we should overdo it. We don't want to be stiff, or wear ourselves out. We just want to be ready to act, and want to avoid going limp and letting outside forces realign our joints.

(2) Dorsiflexion, and more dorsiflexion. Pretty much all the time. Our instincts are to use plantar flexion inappropriately, so we have to focus on counteracting that. It's going to be rare for a student to dorsiflect too much. You'll never collapse due to too much dorsiflexion. The cuffs of your boots will stop you.

(3) Others have noted that the muscles that create dorsiflexion are relatively weak. But we don't have to rely entirely on muscular action to create dorsiflexion. The first step in dorsiflecting is--to stop plantar flexing. Dorsiflexion can happen if we just stop blocking it.
 

Wendy

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I don't race so I can't speak for why all (or any) racers would use that method. Maybe it's universally easier if you're racing (i.e. fast speeds, arcing hard turns, and on groomed hard-snow terrain) to use that method. :huh:

All I was saying is there are different cues that different people use to get themselves forward and flex their ankles...at least in the recreational world.

“pulling the ankles back” never was a good method for me for the reasons described above.

Additionally, “opening” and “closing” the ankle, to me, are terrible terms for a ski instructor to use with a student UNLESS the instructor discusses with the student before skiing what that means and demonstrates it. The average recreational skier has little clue what to do when an instructor yells, “open your ankles!” when skiing downhill.
 

markojp

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I can't say I've ever heard anyone say "open your ankles" in the context of an "average recreational skier" lesson. I've certainly shown people how to 'close' their ankles using physical cues and haven't had any real difficulty doing so. I'll do it boot fitting as well. It's a new sensation to many, but by no means voodoo. If the coach/instructor truly understands the 'what' and 'why' , the 'how' is pretty straight forward.
 

razie

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(3) Others have noted that the muscles that create dorsiflexion are relatively weak.

https://www.peakfitnessnw.com/exercise/one-small-muscle

TA.jpg
 

Wendy

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I can't say I've ever heard anyone say "open your ankles" in the context of an "average recreational skier" lesson. I've certainly shown people how to 'close' their ankles using physical cues and haven't had any real difficulty doing so. I'll do it boot fitting as well. It's a new sensation to many, but by no means voodoo. If the coach/instructor truly understands the 'what' and 'why' , the 'how' is pretty straight forward.

I had an instructor do this to me during a very frustrating lesson. I had never heard the term “open or close” ankles and had no clue what she meant. So, when she told me I was a “hard nut to crack” because I didn’t understand her, it was deeply frustrating and upsetting. That lesson sapped so much of my confidence at the time.
 

razie

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I had an instructor do this to me during a very frustrating lesson. I had never heard the term “open or close” ankles and had no clue what she meant. So, when she told me I was a “hard nut to crack” because I didn’t understand her, it was deeply frustrating and upsetting. That lesson sapped so much of my confidence at the time.

She's due for a job change - I hope you didn't go back for more... There are many cues, both internal and external, like shin tongue contact, shin pressure, feel the tongues, stay off the back of the cuffs, pull the heels back, knees on top of toes etc together with just plain demonstrating the opposite etc... whenever a pro communicates a concept, they have to make sure it's understood, even if it's plain english like "close ankles". I mean you're right: how to close them?

Some may try to appeal to the what, 4? types of learning... and use all methods to get a concept across: visual, reading, kinesthetic etc

Otherwise you have to challenge the idea that you're dealing with a "pro"...

I normally have sessions where I make "them" (racers) take the boots off and work through the movements and concepts off the snow... to make sure there are no misunderstandings etc.
 

Wendy

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She's due for a job change - I hope you didn't go back for more... There are many cues, both internal and external, like shin tongue contact, shin pressure, feel the tongues, stay off the back of the cuffs, pull the heels back, knees on top of toes etc together with just plain demonstrating the opposite etc... whenever a pro communicates a concept, they have to make sure it's understood, even if it's plain english like "close ankles". I mean you're right: how to close them?

Some may try to appeal to the what, 4? types of learning... and use all methods to get a concept across: visual, reading, kinesthetic etc

Otherwise you have to challenge the idea that you're dealing with a "pro"...

I normally have sessions where I make "them" (racers) take the boots off and work through the movements and concepts off the snow... to make sure there are no misunderstandings etc.

Thankfully she was an anomaly. But for some reason the terrible feeling that I was a skiing failure stayed with me a long time.
 

markojp

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I had an instructor do this to me during a very frustrating lesson. I had never heard the term “open or close” ankles and had no clue what she meant. So, when she told me I was a “hard nut to crack” because I didn’t understand her, it was deeply frustrating and upsetting. That lesson sapped so much of my confidence at the time.

Sorry that happened. There are 2 or 3 cues that can be used. One will usually hit the mark, and one out of three is all that's needed. We've been told "bend your knees!" so much, loudly, and often, that ankles feel like talking about a prehensile tail.
 

Henry

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I had an instructor do this to me during a very frustrating lesson. I had never heard the term “open or close” ankles and had no clue what she meant. So, when she told me I was a “hard nut to crack” because I didn’t understand her, it was deeply frustrating and upsetting. That lesson sapped so much of my confidence at the time.
Time for the customer (you) to fire the instructor. Stop skiing, go into the ski school office, ask for the manager or supervisor, and unload. Demand a refund or a full lesson with a different instructor as you prefer. Teaching anything first requires getting the message connected to the student. This instructor maybe had bad clinics or maybe just too high an opinion of herself. Either way, it's not on you.
 

Wendy

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Time for the customer (you) to fire the instructor. Stop skiing, go into the ski school office, ask for the manager or supervisor, and unload. Demand a refund or a full lesson with a different instructor as you prefer. Teaching anything first requires getting the message connected to the student. This instructor maybe had bad clinics or maybe just too high an opinion of herself. Either way, it's not on you.

Thanks. It happened awhile ago, and now I know better. Fortunately since then I’ve never come across an instructor like that.
 

markojp

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Time for the customer (you) to fire the instructor. Stop skiing, go into the ski school office, ask for the manager or supervisor, and unload. Demand a refund or a full lesson with a different instructor as you prefer. Teaching anything first requires getting the message connected to the student. This instructor maybe had bad clinics or maybe just too high an opinion of herself. Either way, it's not on you.

FWIW, this is normal practice. If you had a bad lesson, talk to the school. That said, I don't think the diagnosis of " just too high an opinion of herself" is at all warranted. We just don't know, and throwing instructors under the second hand information hyperbole bus diminishes the conversation.
 

wyowindrunner

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"...Foot bone connected to the heel bone
Heel bone connected to the ankle bone
Ankle bone connected to the shin bone..."
Famous Myers Jubilee Singers-1928. Just leave 'em where Ezekial connected 'em.
 

Jjmd

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I think being able to articulate and sense ankle movement is exceedingly important in refining balance in skiing, esp. racing or high performance skiing. Too many people just think the ankle is locked in because it is enclosed in a rigid boot,and sometimes in a restricted footbed that is too deep. I spend a lot of time balancing on one foot and really trying to just use subtle ankle movements to maintain my balance. This isolating the ankle joint works especially well when standing on the squishy side of a bosu ball. Start with the flat side and progress. Obviously this is not relevant during a ski lesson at an area ,but it is something I use in coaching high end skiing and racing. Ankle movements must be programmed to become default reactions to various stimulus, it is difficult but not impossible ,to make conscious learned subtle ankle adjustments while skiing. Any type of balancing device should work. The StrongBoard balance system is something that I use daily and I thinks works incredibly well, and has many applications, google it. Once again, useless at an actual lesson but something to suggest to someone serious about improving their balance thru ankle movement. One has to really want to improve at skiing to undertake improving ones balance through various drills so this would take an exceptional customer. If is just like any other skill sport, if it were easy everyone would be good.
 

Steve

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Just googled StrongBoard and watched a video of it. Looks great.
 

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