What makes a good bump/off-piste ski?

[Wilhelmson]

the bonafides are pretty good going fast

 

[Atomicman]

Why choose one ski over the other? That's complicated and in the end comes down to personal preference. Here is my take:

Metal makes them damp, stiff, heavier, and minimal tip flap

Width / length need to be sized for the skier, the snow, and how much rocker

Tip shape and tip taper play a big part in how the ski turns and how it feels when initiating a turn. Lots of taper = turny but poor grip on hard snow

Flex is very important and heavy skiers need stiffer skis, for moguls don't want to much stiffness

Rocker is the big key for skis I think. Rocker allows the ski to pivot sideways at speed. In the trees I "hang my tails out" continuously for speed control and then edge and carve as necessary. There are so many ways to do rocker, that's a major factor in one ski versus another.

All these factors come into play. For trees and off piste and bumps and groomers, I would want:

Lots of rocker, metal, medium stiff, a little tip taper, but not much, and a rounder tip, not square.

I use a Liberty Origin 96 as my tree ski. It is light with no metal, but stiff and heavy rocker. Medium tip tape. The tips do flap a bit at speed, but the ski carves from the middle in the stiff, camber section. This is a fairly unusual ski.

The Enforcer is a much more main stream shape with lower rocker and nice round shape tips and tails. It might won't be as pivotable as the Liberty, but it will be better on groomers.

Something like the new Moment Wildcat 108 might be to your liking. More off piste than on, but its called a playful charger. The Enforcer is fairly square in the middle of off piste and on, I think.

check out Blister's Review tech section for a better description of ski characteristics

Now, if you were asking what makes one of the three skis you listed better than the other, I totally mis-interpreted your post and apologize.

Scott I would agree with all you have said except , I think tail shape and taper angle have more of an effect on turn shape and turn versatility then the tip. Tip shape is more about how easy or difficult it is to initiate a turn or start a carve, but the ass end determines turn shape and versatility. And one other item, torsional stiffness is paramount in the bumps. So I will assume you have been referring to longitudinal stiffness.

 

[François Pugh]

the bonafides are pretty good going fast

I really enjoyed the new Bonafides (with the shorter side cut radius than previous edition) off-piste. They were easy-peasy to ski, very forgiving, had chops to carve some hard turns, and could still smear and pivot to your heart's content. The only thing I didn't like them for was going Mach Schnell while wanting to cleanly carve very long radius turns; in order to get the edges to bite enough not to keep going straight down the fall line, I had to tip them too far up on edge resulting in the skis trying to dial up a turn way too short for my speed. That would not a problem for most skiers, as most skiers won't be crazy enough to ski that ski at those speeds (but I had to know).

 

[Wilhelmson]

I really enjoyed the new Bonafides (with the shorter side cut radius than previous edition) off-piste. They were easy-peasy to ski, very forgiving, had chops to carve some hard turns, and could still smear and pivot to your heart's content. The only thing I didn't like them for was going Mach Schnell while wanting to cleanly carve very long radius turns; in order to get the edges to bite enough not to keep going straight down the fall line, I had to tip them too far up on edge resulting in the skis trying to dial up a turn way too short for my speed. That would not a problem for most skiers, as most skiers won't be crazy enough to ski that ski at those speeds (but I had to know).

Ha, yeah well I demoed the 187 for a couple hours so at around 175 lbs on a big ski that was new to me I didn't go all out, which I rarely do anyways. If op is looking for a 100 mm woods/bump ski that won't tire his legs out but can still carve clean at 75 mph that would be quite a ski.

 

[AZSkiBum]

Ha, yeah well I demoed the 187 for a couple hours so at around 175 lbs on a big ski that was new to me I didn't go all out, which I rarely do anyways. If op is looking for a 100 mm woods/bump ski that won't tire his legs out but can still carve clean at 75 mph that would be quite a ski.

Haha, exactly what I'm looking for but I'll say 65mph is about my personal limit.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Haha, exactly what I'm looking for but I'll say 65mph is about my personal limit.

I that case the bones might be fine. I believe you have a few pounds on Mr Briggs and me.

 

[GregK]

Haha, exactly what I'm looking for but I'll say 65mph is about my personal limit.

Wimp.....lol

You should be on mid 180s skis which will have no issues hitting those speeds.
What length were your Pinnacle 95 skis? Assuming 184cm but if shorter, all these skis will be LEAPS and bounds more stable not just A LOT more stable through crud.

 

[AZSkiBum]

I know, that self preservation thing was really getting in the way!

Correct, K2s were 184 and my Fischers are 180 length.

 

[François Pugh]

I that case the bones might be fine. I believe you have a few pounds on Mr Briggs and me.

The earlier Bonafides with the longer turn radius would be your ski.

 

[ScottB]

Scott I would agree with all you have said except , I think tail shape and taper angle have more of an effect on turn shape and turn versatility then the tip. Tip shape is more about how easy or difficult it is to initiate a turn or start a carve, but the ass end determines turn shape and versatility. And one other item, torsional stiffness is paramount in the bumps. So I will assume you have been referring to longitudinal stiffness.

completely agree. I reread my post and realized I wrote "rounder tip, not square" and I meant tail, not tip.

 

[Viking9]

I had to shelve my favorite ski of all time , twin tip Rossi Schimitar because of the tail in the bumps, agree with Aman on that .

 

[Tony S]

From the original post:

Give me bumps or trees all day. Groomers are for recovery or seeing how far over I can get skis.

How did we get from here to where we are, with the stiff long radius high speed groomer skis? Honestly it looks to me like the answer is, "a lot of dick waving."

 

[AngryAnalyst]

From the original post:



How did we get from here to where we are, with the stiff long radius high speed groomer skis? Honestly it looks to me like the answer is, "a lot of dick waving."

Because he also said he wanted to charge hard with no speed limit. You can get something that does bumps and trees well enough and handles high speed groomers if you’re willing to make certain stylistic compromises both places, stiff-ish skis with twin tip or at least not very square tails are perfect for it in my view.

Stylistic compromises mean you have to be ok not skiing a comp zipper line and you have to be ok not skiing a super high edge angle carve with high g-force on groomers. Provided you can accept both limitations, I think something like a Brahma, Enforcer or Masterblaster works really well.

 

[GregK]

Quick Video describing the Enforcer 104 being perfect for the OP conditions which I totally agree with. Love mine!

 

[mdf]

How did we get from here to where we are, with the stiff long radius high speed groomer skis?

You can get something that does bumps and trees well enough and handles high speed groomers

I've stayed out of it, but sounds like my low-prestige Nordica Navigators 85 fills that need. Similar to the Enforcer, maybe a little softer, but with a real tail.

 

[KingGrump]

Honestly it looks to me like the answer is, "a lot of dick waving."

have to say your eye sight is pretty decent with the corrective lens.

 

[John O]

Give me bumps or trees all day. Groomers are for recovery or seeing how far over I can get skis.

I guess my description is misleading but I need an all around ski and prefer something more like the Fischers. I'm not a zipper line guy in the bumps nor am I recreating Warren Miller backcountry videos. But when the snow isn't so great in those areas and I'm on piste, I want to charge hard.

I agree with a couple of the comments here that what you're describing is a little problematic. A ski that's going to excel in bumps and trees is going to give up something on groomers. And a ski that charges hard on groomers is going to give up something in bumps and trees. So, which is it that you want to choose to prioritize? You have to pick a direction to lean, at least. Are you wanting to give up a little bump/tree performance for the sake of groomer performance? Or vice-versa?

Edit: As an example, the Enforcer 100 is one that keeps getting mentioned in this thread. IMO, there are absolutely better bump/tree skis out there, but most (all?) of them aren't as good on groomers as the Enforcer is. The Enforcer isn't a perfect ski that can do everything, but it is a good suggestion depending on your priorities. I personally ski something that I think is a better bump/tree/soft snow ski than the Enforcer but isn't as good on groomers, because that's my preference (Armada Tracer 98, for what it's worth).

 

[François Pugh]

You also have to decide what exactly it is you want to give up for "charging hard" on groomers, the ability to make a high g force turn or the ability to make a clean carve at high speeds, even if not so hard a turn. Something with a longer turn radius (>21 m) although wide and a bit soft will still carve cleanly at high speeds, while something with a shorter radius (e.g. 18 m) will not carve cleanly at high speeds, but will have the grip to make very hard turns at somewhat lower speeds.