What makes a good bump/off-piste ski?

[AZSkiBum]

Long time lurker here and I relied on you guys once before for advice on skis. Back then I wanted something less demanding than my Fischer Motive 95ti's after 3-4 days straight of aggressive skiing. I asked for a playful ski that was a bit lighter and ended up going with the recommended K2 Pinnacle 95s. Sadly, what I thought I wanted was not reality. When the trees ended or it was a front side day, I wanted to charge hard with no speed limit. The K2s say "oh nay nay" and the tips flap/chatter breaking confidence that I can push them harder without eating snow. A bit of tuning got the grip up a bit but still not inspiring. So now it's back to the drawing board. It appears I like skis with metal and I'll just have to be more fit to handle the longer trips.

About me:
Aggressive(power over style) west coast skier (Telluride most of the time)
6'0 - 210lbs
Give me bumps or trees all day. Groomers are for recovery or seeing how far over I can get skis.

I guess my though was somewhere in line with Nordica E100s, Mantra's, or Bones but I really don't know what makes one better than the other for off piste and bumps. I'm open to suggestions and would love to know why I should choose one ski over another. Let's hear it please!

 

[GregK]

Enforcer 104 Free is a perfect ski for off piste and is a blast in trees and bumps. Nice weight for high speed crud busting as well and great on soft groomers. Really fun ski that still has a backbone. A bit more playful than the E100 and better in crud. E100 would be a bit better grip on harder snow though.

Mantra M5 a little more on piste biased and the Bonafide is quite versatile but not as fun or forgiving as the Enforcers where you are usually skiing.

 

[Tom K.]

I was a bit slow to come around to this, but I've never been on a ski with more "bandwidth" than the Enforcer 100 (I'm definitely a traditional, directional skier).

Speed, aggressiveness, piste or not, bumps or not, pow or not, it can cover all those conditions from zero to near-mach looney levels.

IMO, this comes from a good shape in terms of sidecut and rocker profile, a good flex of not too stiff, and good dampness, but not dead.

I like them so much after two seasons, I just bought a pair of E88s!

Of course, on true hard pack, they work, but are sub-optimal in terms of zing and fun.

 

[CS2-6]

I like skis with metal...off piste...bumps.

It certainly depends on how you ski these conditions; but as far as I understand it, "skis with metal", "skis that are good off piste", and "skis that are good in bumps" would be describing 3 completely different types of skis with almost no overlap...

 

[DocGKR]

Enforcer 100 or 104 are hard to beat for overall versatility. Mantra 102, Mindbender 99, Bonafide, J-Skis Masterblaster are also all worthy of consideration.

 

[Bad Bob]

@Tom K. and I share the same opinion of the Enforcer 100. I haven't skied a lot of the skis out there and undoubtedly the market is full of good skis, but with the E 100 just haven't felt the need. Bought some Volkl RTM 84's to cruise groomers with, and sold them, the Enforcers did a better job. They are not playful but they are capable of doing anything they have been asked to.

Enforcer is a fitting moniker for these skis.

 

[AZSkiBum]

It certainly depends on how you ski these conditions; but as far as I understand it, "skis with metal", "skis that are good off piste", and "skis that are good in bumps" would be describing 3 completely different types of skis with almost no overlap...

I guess my description is misleading but I need an all around ski and prefer something more like the Fischers. I'm not a zipper line guy in the bumps nor am I recreating Warren Miller backcountry videos. But when the snow isn't so great in those areas and I'm on piste, I want to charge hard. Pinnacle 95s don't support that last part.

@Tom K. put it a bit more eloquently than I did. Sounds like I'm on the right track with E100s.

 

[Tom K.]

Enforcer 100 or 104 are hard to beat for overall versatility. Mantra 102, Mindbender 99, Bonafide, J-Skis Masterblaster are also all worthy of consideration.

I would love to hop on a pair of the new Mantra 102s sometime this season.

Very intriguing ski for a traditional, old-school guy.

 

[Atomicman]

You can't go wrong with Enforcer 100. I ski on the 185cm with Look Pivot 18. The ski does it all without missing a beat.Nordica hit a grand slam with the shape and flex. Totally predictable and none of that wide ski awkwardness on groomers! Skied them at Whistler last year, went from15" of new to hard-pack to bumps and chop without a hiccup! Want to improve the hard-pack performance, be sure they have a 3 degree side edge. I have 3 other pair of skis and and they didn't see the snow last season!

 

[crgildart]

Ya I think OP is talking about leftovers and cut up crud more than pure bump skiing terrain. Conditions on tree runs between storms more than conditions on Outhouse at MJ.

 

[cantunamunch]

Ya I think OP is talking about leftovers and cut up crud more than pure bump skiing terrain. Conditions on tree runs between storms more than conditions on Outhouse at MJ.

All the answers have been consistent with this.

 

[Slim]

In my experience, treeruns between storms are exactly like Outhouse, except that there is a tree on the top of most bumps.
I love them both.

This isn’t surprising, since moguls form when everyone turns in the same spot. That’s what happens in the trees.

 

[crgildart]

In my experience, treeruns between storms are exactly like Outhouse, except that there is a tree on the top of most bumps.
I love them both.

This isn’t surprising, since moguls form when everyone turns in the same spot. That’s what happens in the trees.

Places that get a lot of snow don't have trees on top of moguls. Places that get a lot of snow have trees on top of tree wells.

 

[ScottB]

About me:
Aggressive(power over style) west coast skier (Telluride most of the time)
6'0 - 210lbs
Give me bumps or trees all day. Groomers are for recovery or seeing how far over I can get skis.

I guess my though was somewhere in line with Nordica E100s, Mantra's, or Bones but I really don't know what makes one better than the other for off piste and bumps. I'm open to suggestions and would love to know why I should choose one ski over another. Let's hear it please!

Why choose one ski over the other? That's complicated and in the end comes down to personal preference. Here is my take:

Metal makes them damp, stiff, heavier, and minimal tip flap

Width / length need to be sized for the skier, the snow, and how much rocker

Tip shape and tip taper play a big part in how the ski turns and how it feels when initiating a turn. Lots of taper = turny but poor grip on hard snow

Flex is very important and heavy skiers need stiffer skis, for moguls don't want to much stiffness

Rocker is the big key for skis I think. Rocker allows the ski to pivot sideways at speed. In the trees I "hang my tails out" continuously for speed control and then edge and carve as necessary. There are so many ways to do rocker, that's a major factor in one ski versus another.

All these factors come into play. For trees and off piste and bumps and groomers, I would want:

Lots of rocker, metal, medium stiff, a little tip taper, but not much, and a rounder tip, not square.

I use a Liberty Origin 96 as my tree ski. It is light with no metal, but stiff and heavy rocker. Medium tip tape. The tips do flap a bit at speed, but the ski carves from the middle in the stiff, camber section. This is a fairly unusual ski.

The Enforcer is a much more main stream shape with lower rocker and nice round shape tips and tails. It might won't be as pivotable as the Liberty, but it will be better on groomers.

Something like the new Moment Wildcat 108 might be to your liking. More off piste than on, but its called a playful charger. The Enforcer is fairly square in the middle of off piste and on, I think.

check out Blister's Review tech section for a better description of ski characteristics

Now, if you were asking what makes one of the three skis you listed better than the other, I totally mis-interpreted your post and apologize.

 

[Slim]

Enforcer 104Free will have the looser feel if you want that over the Enforcer 100

 

[Seldomski]

@AZSkiBum - I am same height and weight as you. I have similar preferences for a ski--

-No tip flapping at speed (AKA bring on the metal and damp construction)
-Needs to bust crud
-Decent in moguls
-Solid edge hold. Basically I want to be confident the ski will hold me up in steep areas and not be a noodle when I need it.
-Good for cruising groomer and not fat ski (90 mm max)

I also don't like wide skis -- I feel like I trip on them just moving around in the lift lines, etc.

So I ended up trying a bunch of stuff, settling on a match between Volkl Kendo and Blizzard Brahma. Not sure why these haven't been mentioned in this thread yet...

I demoed both 2017 Kendo and 2017 Brahma - they are very similar. I chose Kendo finally:
-177 cm length is a little more maneuverable in bumps vs 180 cm length for Brahma
-Kendo tail is a bit easier to smear, being a little more rounded (bumps again)
-Brahma is a bit better busting through crud, but Kendo is no slouch here either
-Kendo seemed to make multiple turn shapes for me. Brahma had a preferred radius (maybe tune issue).

FYI Kendo I have is 90 under foot, Brahma I demoed was 88. I think newer Kendo has become a bit narrower, now at 88.

 

[Decreed_It]

I was a bit slow to come around to this, but I've never been on a ski with more "bandwidth" than the Enforcer 100 (I'm definitely a traditional, directional skier).

Speed, aggressiveness, piste or not, bumps or not, pow or not, it can cover all those conditions from zero to near-mach looney levels.

IMO, this comes from a good shape in terms of sidecut and rocker profile, a good flex of not too stiff, and good dampness, but not dead.

I like them so much after two seasons, I just bought a pair of E88s!

Of course, on true hard pack, they work, but are sub-optimal in terms of zing and fun.

+3 or is it 4 now? What @Tom K. just said. I literally feel the same way and did the same thing (added 88's to my quiver after loving my 100's. 104's if I lived out west, sure, but I don't). The only time the 100's wore me out was a couple early spring boilerplate days in Austria last season.

 

[HDSkiing]

Long time lurker here and I relied on you guys once before for advice on skis. Back then I wanted something less demanding than my Fischer Motive 95ti's after 3-4 days straight of aggressive skiing. I asked for a playful ski that was a bit lighter and ended up going with the recommended K2 Pinnacle 95s. Sadly, what I thought I wanted was not reality. When the trees ended or it was a front side day, I wanted to charge hard with no speed limit. The K2s say "oh nay nay" and the tips flap/chatter breaking confidence that I can push them harder without eating snow. A bit of tuning got the grip up a bit but still not inspiring. So now it's back to the drawing board. It appears I like skis with metal and I'll just have to be more fit to handle the longer trips.

Can’t comment on the Enforcers, but if you generally liked the K2’s off piste then you might try out the K2 Mindbender. I demoed the 90Ti last year and its a sweet ski. Nice carver that will lay down trenches if you ask it but feels a lot like the Pinacle in the trees, crud etc. which is to say its “Playful.” There is a 99Ti version as well that might be more to your liking.

For the Trees, deep snow I am still on the K2 Pinacle 105, which is much beefier than the 95 IMHO when you do get it on piste. For bumps I stick with a narrower front side ski, in this case a Head iRally.

 

[DocGKR]

If you want to charge hard on-piste, then the Enforcer 88, Brahma 88 or 82, Mindbender 90, Fischer RC One GT in 82 or 86, Monster 83 or 88 all seem to be great options.

My Enforcer 88's were my favorite narrower All-Mountain ski of last year.

 

[AngryAnalyst]

All these factors come into play. For trees and off piste and bumps and groomers, I would want:

Lots of rocker, metal, medium stiff, a little tip taper, but not much, and a rounder tip, not square.

I use a Liberty Origin 96 as my tree ski. It is light with no metal, but stiff and heavy rocker. Medium tip tape. The tips do flap a bit at speed, but the ski carves from the middle in the stiff, camber section. This is a fairly unusual ski.

This is more or less my perspective. I think rocker really helps with bumps and trees, especially tail rocker. The primary cost of the tail rocker is, I think, less energy out of a turn on hard snow, but if you get stiff skis they hold an edge fine.