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aveski

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I have never taken a lesson, although I did a Steep & Deep Camp at Jackson Hole. Although my skiing improved and we did a video shoot, there wasn't a whole lot of instruction going on.
I have now signed up for Ski Week instruction at Taos. I didn't avoid lessons in the past, it just didn't really occur to me. I can ski steep groomers, powder, soft moguls and open tree runs with pretty good competence, meaning I rarely fall. That being said, my form could probably use improvement. I work on different stances, but still don't have a great perception if I'm skiing all that well. I'm interested in getting evaluated and working on improving my skiing. I'm more interested in function rather than form, although I realize both are related. Hopefully, I won't be a bonehead.
 

KingGrump

Most Interesting Man In The World
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I can ski steep groomers, powder, soft moguls and open tree runs with pretty good competence, meaning I rarely fall.

Welcome to Taos.
Good luck.
 

John J

Booting up
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Feb 18, 2018
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11
The question is, what separates a good skier from a beginner or intermediate? The simple answer is, how they create their platform to balance on. So, what does that mean? I'm not into complicated medical terms and physics lessons, most people aren't. They don't want to hear about dorsi-flexion and a bunch of super technical terms. They simply ask, "how can I get better"? I'm certainly not the be-all-end-all answer to that question. This is a general ski forum and without seeing how any individual skis, it's virtually impossible to fix what ails them. 2 of the biggest problems are, skiing in the back seat, or banking/leaning into the new turn and tossing in a 3rd possibility, twisting their upper body in order to get their skis to turn the corner. All of these things I mentioned create problems, and loss of balance.

The 1st, skiing in the back seat. What is happening? Your calves are resting against the back of your boots. If you think about it, it kinda makes sense. When we first learned to ski and wanted to go faster without really learning to ski, we all learned the snow plow/pizza stance. We quickly discovered we could BRACE against that downhill/outside ski and could increase our speed and maintain some semblance of safety and control without ever having to make a REAL turn. When the one leg got tired and started to burn, we'd make some half assed attempt at switching legs. Wild guess...30-40 percent ended in a yard sale because we were going too fast and or the snow conditions were a bit more than we could handle... ie bumps, ice or steeper pitch. The back of the boot is higher and stiffer than the front of the boot and creates an easier platform to balance against, so it's natural to default to whatever offers the most support to balance or brace against. The problem is, once we fall in love with the back of the boot, our weight is also back there, and we give up control over the front of our skis, and lose the ability to make turns and control our speed. In other words, if the front of our skis are barely in contact with the snow, it's pretty difficult to dig the shovels of our skis in and make a turn. We've all probably heard someone say, "GET FORWARD." AH HA!!! I'll flex forward at the waist and all my trouble will disappear. Nope. Your calves are still resting against the back of your boots and you're artificially trying to create forward pressure, but you're still in the back seat. If you hit a small bump, you will get tossed forward over the front of your skis and eat shit. Ok, so how do we "GET FORWARD?' We have 3 joints to work with...ANKLES, KNEES and HIPS/WAIST. The primary means of getting forward is the ankle joint. I think of it like this (and this doesn't mean I don't flex my knees and hips, it's an example of how to find forward or more accurately, center balance) ... without flexing your knees or hips, meaning DO NOT bend them at all, simply lean forward against the front of your boots. Here's what's happening in my boots... I feel a lot of pressure with my shins against the front of my boots. Since I'm not flexing my knees or hips, I feel my heels being pressed into the heel cup of my boots. My upper body feels like it's hanging over a set of bicycle handlebars. My hips are now OVER MY FEET. Again, MY HIPS ARE OVER MY FEET. This is primarily where I want to be. Ok smart ass, so why should I ever be concerned about my knee and hip joints and why do I ever need to flex them? To me, these joints are what I use to absorb terrain. This is a bit oversimplified, but everything I do with my skiing stems from keeping my hips over my feet. This includes steeps, moguls, pow, hucking off of kickers and side hits, skiing trees, cliff dropping and skiing switch. Hips over the feet. Does this mean I exclusively keep my hips over my feet? No...but it's the ability to get my hips back over my feet that matters. Paramount to all of this is having properly fitted boots and keeping my upper boot buckles and power strap as tight as I can make them. If it's 0 degrees or colder, I do loosen my buckles a bit so I can flex my boots a bit more, simply due to the cold and the stiffness the colder temps create. In case anyone is wondering, I barely buckle my lower buckles. I don't feel the need to squeeze the B-Jesus out of my foot. It makes for poor circulation and cold feet. Opinions may vary. Like everything I write, this is just my opinion. If what I write helps someone...great. If not, I'm sorry I couldn't help.

Moving on...Banking/Leaning into the turn. This is a lateral balance issue. What I see most often is new or intermediate skiers wanting to make a turn, but don't know how to transition. They have the right idea by projecting their body down the hill in an attempt to find their new edges, by leaning into their new turn. Unfortunately, they haven't established balance on their new outside ski, so they end up on the inside edge of the inside ski. In their mind, they're waiting or hoping for the outside ski to engage and bring them around to finish their new turn. The problem is, all of their weight is on the inside ski, so they never have the chance to establish a balance platform on the outside ski, because their weight isn't where it needs to be. Typically, this is a very uncomfortable feeling that leads to an immediate loss of balance and subsequent crash. Granted, the White Pass Lean proved to be an effective tactic for one of the Maher brothers back in the 1980's and is still used by ski racers and freestyle skiers as a tactic to accomplish a particular turn, or simply to establish a comfort zone when they do get out of balance so they can recover from an out of balance state. Or maybe someone wants to show off their Christie Royale... I love watching people do those. The best advice I can offer comes in the form of drills if you are leaning into your turns. 1, shuffle your feet at transition. If you are favoring or can't get off your old edges...traverse across the hill and shuffle your feet. This will bring you back to a neutral state of balance. 2, when starting your new turn, lean your upper body toward your outside ski and reach down and touch the outside of your outside ski boot. This will definitely establish lateral balance over your outside ski, and it will be impossible to lean into your turn. Your body will create a nice "C" shape over your outside ski.

Lastly, twisting your upper body. Again, mostly newer skiers will twist their upper body in order to get their skis to turn. Sometimes the twist is the direction they want to turn, other times they twist their upper body counter to the direction they want to turn. Either way they do the twisting, one big problem surfaces. One or both hands end up behind them, which puts them out of balance and in the back seat. From there, and since they're out of balance, their turns get bigger and their speed increases and pretty soon they're in trouble. It's probably easier said than done, but try not to twist your upper body. Modern skis are designed to turn. Let the skis do the work and save your energy.

One final note... If you can, take a lesson. Whatever the instructor teaches you during the lesson, continue to practice it. They won't be able to make you an expert in a single day. They will give you 1 or 2 things to work on to improve your skiing. After that, it's up to the individual to continue working on what they learned and refine the skill. When you feel like you've mastered the skill, take another lesson and learn an additional skill or 2. If you have a friend that knows how to teach you, take advantage of it. If you're riding up the chair lift with some random person you saw skiing and you thought they were a really good skier, don't be afraid to ask them if they'd be willing to spend a bit of time helping you. Maybe I'm just speaking for myself, but I certainly wouldn't mind taking an hour or so out of my day to pay it forward if someone asked. The worst they can say is no. Best wishes to you all.
 

marjoram_sage

newly addicted to skiing
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something that might be relevant here is what I read on this website by Rick Schnellmann: https://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/Affordable_Ski_Lessons.html.

Perhaps people realize that these lessons aren't going to make a big enough difference to their skiing b/c they don't ski that often and just want to have fun at whatever level they are skiing?


It troubled me that adult skiers did not have access to the same level of information and instruction my students did. I understood the problem. My racers trained 6 days a week, and the technical skills they learned were broad. The cost for an adult to pursue such training would be very prohibitive for the vast majority. Here in Colorado a full day private lesson is often over $600. Doing the math based on that figure, a full year of training similar to what I offered my athletes would cost an adult over $50,000. Obviously, few adult skiers would consider that a reasonable option, so their lesson experiences typically consist of the occasional one or two lessons a year. Ski Schools understand that, so they design their lessons to provide a quick bang for the buck. A student's skiing is rapidly evaluated, quick fix tips are issued, and the student is then sent on their way. There is little time for the broad skill development required to support true expert skiing, so the student generally just continues to flounder in the land of the "terminal intermediate".
 

TheArchitect

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I miss Rick's posts from back in the EpicSki days. He's a smart guy and knows his way around ski instruction.
Thanks for reminding us of the lucidity of his perspective.

I had no idea Rick was on Epic. I bought the Your Ski Coach basic balancing and edging drills DVD’s maybe 4 years ago and they really helped. I just bought the Angulation and Transition DVD’s and am going to start working on those drills. The production values may be dated but the content and clarity works well.
 

marjoram_sage

newly addicted to skiing
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I had no idea Rick was on Epic. I bought the Your Ski Coach basic balancing and edging drills DVD’s maybe 4 years ago and they really helped. I just bought the Angulation and Transition DVD’s and am going to start working on those drills. The production values may be dated but the content and clarity works well.

great to know the content is good. I'm considering buying his DVDs.
 

TheArchitect

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great to know the content is good. I'm considering buying his DVDs.

If you do I recommend starting with just the basic balance and edging to see if it works for you. I also bought the related drill cards so I could bring them with me on the hill. When I'm doing drills I'll pull out the cards on the lift to refresh my memory of what I saw in the video.

He has roughly 30-35 drills for each DVD. Some are components in order to teach you how to do the 'main' drill. For example, say a drill requires your body to do three things to do it properly (a+b+c = drill) he has separate drills for a/b/c and then you do the main drill. After I did them once I could skip a/b/c and just do the main drill. I hope that's clear.

BTW, I wasn't kidding when I say the video production is dated! ogsmile
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
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Rick Schnellman's DVDs are full of drills. His approach is to have you explore each drill several ways, exaggerating how much you push the drill in one direction then the other, then toning things down to somewhere in the middle. He leaves it to you to figure out where you perform best within these parameters. This is an excellent way of teaching. Not too many people do it this way.

Rick's organization of how skiing works is strong and clear in these videos, and his terminology is spot-on. The man thinks naturally in traditional outline form (how many of us do that?), which helps with clarity. He uses a minimum of words, and chooses easy-to-remember terms for things. The drills are not necessarily easy, so he often breaks complex drills down into baby steps to help move the user along, as @TheArchitect points out.

But boy are the videos boring to watch. They could have used background music and face-to-camera talking every now and then to lighten the mood and break the monotony. Instead, you get the drills and just the drills. So the program is efficient; no time is wasted on frills. I made my way through the whole set one summer, taking copious notes that I could refer to once snow fell. Those notes are golden.

I recommend the DVDs.
 
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QueueCT

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268
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I find most folks expect too much out of a lesson. For me, I like to get an assessment of my weaknesses in various terrain ... groomers, steeps, crud and moguls. Then focus on two areas I'd like to improve (depends on the weaknesses identified). Get drills and advice on how to do it, spend the rest of the lesson practicing that while getting feedback about what's working and not working. Then I need at least a few days of focused skiing to consolidate that learning and ingrain it into my skiing. I'm a pretty good skier so this is more about technique refinement than huge breakthroughs. Though I've had those as well as a result of a lesson.

If I'm not willing to spend the 10 days to consolidate the learning then it's not worth taking the lesson. I've discovered plenty of issues on my own or as a result of watching others ski or reading and had to go through that same process of ingraining the new skill. We're at the mountain every weekend so there's plenty of time for met to take this approach.

If I paid a few hundred bucks for a lesson assuming it would make me better without the additional effort on my own then I would be both disappointed and foolish.
 

marjoram_sage

newly addicted to skiing
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San Jose California
If you do I recommend starting with just the basic balance and edging to see if it works for you. I also bought the related drill cards so I could bring them with me on the hill. When I'm doing drills I'll pull out the cards on the lift to refresh my memory of what I saw in the video.

He has roughly 30-35 drills for each DVD. Some are components in order to teach you how to do the 'main' drill. For example, say a drill requires your body to do three things to do it properly (a+b+c = drill) he has separate drills for a/b/c and then you do the main drill. After I did them once I could skip a/b/c and just do the main drill. I hope that's clear.

BTW, I wasn't kidding when I say the video production is dated! ogsmile
 

KingGrump

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But boy are the videos are boring to watch.

That is the understatement of the year. It took me a month to make it through the first DVD when I first bought it way back when. Keep falling asleep on the couch. Way better than sleeping pills.
TBH, it is one of the better instruction video out there. Just have to take it in small doses.
 

marjoram_sage

newly addicted to skiing
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my earlier comment didn't work. My knee jerk reaction was the DVDs and drill cards are expensive with ridiculous shipping fees. I had to remind myself how much we end up spending total on skiing and this is a justifiable investment. Not to mention that I forget most of what was taught in lessons so it's good to have recorded or written format. I have the basics ordered and look forward to doing those drills.
 

TheArchitect

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my earlier comment didn't work. My knee jerk reaction was the DVDs and drill cards are expensive with ridiculous shipping fees. I had to remind myself how much we end up spending total on skiing and this is a justifiable investment. Not to mention that I forget most of what was taught in lessons so it's good to have recorded or written format. I have the basics ordered and look forward to doing those drills.

That was my justification for the cost. The drills are always there to reference long after a lesson is over.
 

CalG

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Just a thought......

How many 'lessons' did those who espouse 'take lessons' take?
 

Sibhusky

Whitefish, MT
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Arriving late to this party. But as one of the most recalcitrant non lesson takers out there I might as well answer. Back when I was in my twenties, I took lessons, usually a week at a time for trips out west, but the occasional single group lesson, pretty often. Then in my thirties I stopped taking them except for at Club Med, where it was pretty much a requirement if you wanted a social life during your stay, so I did them a few times. Then in my fifties (I may have had one seasonal package in my forties, useless) I signed up for two seasonal packages, nothing to show for it. And then once in my sixties, useless except for when I dumped the group I was assigned to and picked a different one late in the seasonal package. The group I joined had petered down to one or two there who barely participated, so I got some all day private lessons out of the deal. They were okay.

But the fact is, I've been skiing 47 years. As Rusty used to say over at Epic, Practice Makes Permanent. I ski the way I ski at this point. I know I have an A frame and I flap my arms. But the flaws are pretty much set in granite by now. During this time skiing "styles" have changed. Years ago they wanted your ankles practically glued together, then all of a sudden we were being told to keep then apart. Equipment has changed. So, add some jaundice (okay, old fashioned word, try "weariness") with conflicting stories over this time period and you see why I have pretty much given up. My skiing is adequate for what I attempt at this point in my life. So be it.
 

Fuller

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I get the flapping arms thing @Sibhusky , but if you look a bit like Lawrence Welk starting up the band, I'm more like Leonard Bernstein alternatively addressing 1st Violin and then the horn section.
 
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