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GB_Ski

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I think many stuck intermediates with “home made” technique intrinsically know that hints, tips and random lessons are not going to take them to the next level. In fact, despite being well intentioned, they are more likely to regress. What they really need to improve is to go back to square one and start over. Doing this is a HUGE time and money commitment, that most are not prepared to do, so they just keep plodding along on their own. Helluva explained this concept in his “What It Takes” thread.

I can't speak for others, so with my sample size of 1. Back to square one is exactly what I want, but I don't want to go to square one with instructor X, square two with instructor Y and square three with instructor Z. One bad experience, go back a square. Nah, I rather go play by myself. I barely have enough time to spend with the people I like, why would I pay and spend money with someone I don't?

Anyway, I'm gonna follow Kneale Brownson's suggestion. I'm gonna call the Belleayre school next Fall, and ask them how I can set up a block of 2 hour every weekend for 5-6 weekends with the same instructor. I'm gonna do some screening with the instructors if possible, or at least peek at their profile.

And for the instructors on the board, you guys are great. But if you just take a day off and go to a local mountain and take an intermediate group lesson during the weekend, see if your experience reflects the board sentiment.
 

Erik Timmerman

So much better than a pro
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I barely have enough time to spend with the people I like, why would I pay and spend money with someone I don't?

You are just assuming you don't like the unknown ski instructor? do you know how that makes you sound? Good luck with, well, everything...
 

GB_Ski

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You are just assuming you don't like the unknown ski instructor? do you know how that makes you sound? Good luck with, well, everything...
Sorry, I don't mean to say it like that. I'm saying because I have no choice in terms of instructor in group lessons, if I don't like the instructor, I'm pretty stuck with him/her until the end. By then, even if I get a refund, it's still time wasted. I tho I was the only one who felt that way, but judging by other posters, I'm not.
 

Alexzn

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I know we have skied together. I hope that you knowthat everything you say here doesn’t apply to me or the advanced and expert group lessons I teach almost every day of the week. Anyone who thinks that lessons aren’t worth their time should come take one with me. It might be the best day of skiing you ever had. I’ve heard that a lot this year.

Of course! But you are an exception and the only people who are lucky to ski with you are the people who did their research and requested you, or people who won the sweepstakes of getting an awesome pro. You are at Jackson, the mountain that tends to attract mire awesome pros than average. And more to the point I bet that you are seeing only a very small portion of what people pay for the privilege of skiing with you. The economics of ski lesson is skewed way too much towards resort operators. I always tell my friends to tip the instructor and they are always shocked at how little the resorts pay instructors.
 

HardDaysNight

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I think many stuck intermediates with “home made” technique intrinsically know that hints, tips and random lessons are not going to take them to the next level. In fact, despite being well intentioned, they are more likely to regress. What they really need to improve is to go back to square one and start over. Doing this is a HUGE time and money commitment, that most are not prepared to do, so they just keep plodding along on their own. Helluva explained this concept in his “What It Takes” thread.

This is exactly right. It’s true also of candidates trying to advance up the instructor certification ranks, with even more resistance from most of them. I remember a post on Epic by a Canadian level 4 (I think he went by Skidude 42) who pointed out that lower level instructors almost always had fundamentally flawed technique that would require a complete rework from the ground up before they could realistically aspire to the higher cert levels. And that very few believed it to be true or were prepared to put in the work. Needless to say his views were not met with universal approval ;)
 

Mike King

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This is exactly right. It’s true also of candidates trying to advance up the instructor certification ranks, with even more resistance from most of them. I remember a post on Epic by a Canadian level 4 (I think he went by Skidude 42) who pointed out that lower level instructors almost always had fundamentally flawed technique that would require a complete rework from the ground up before they could realistically aspire to the higher cert levels. And that very few believed it to be true or were prepared to put in the work. Needless to say his views were not met with universal approval ;)
Well, as one who has put in the time to rebuild my skiing from the ground up, it is a lot more complicated than just simply resistance. In order to effect the changes, you first have to understand the difference between what is desired and what is being performed. Often, those gaps stem from a fundamental misunderstanding of biomechanics and physics. And if you've never experienced what ski performance actually is, the student has no frame of reference to understand the gap. The more the student skis with their deadend technique, the more embedded it becomes. And the more embedded become the belief systems that are incorrect.

Frankly, if you are going to rebuild your skiing, it is going to require more than occasional group lessons. You are going to require a coach. That coach has to be not only competent (and even all level 3 instructors are not competent, but it is a better bet than level 2 instructors), but also has to be compatible with you.

Not everyone can afford private lessons. The process is much easier in a private lesson setting, but it probably can work in a group setting. The client has to take ownership of the process. They need to communicate their objectives to the instructor and be clear about what their expectations are. The instructor will need to balance the needs of the individual with the group, but it can work.

Mike
 

LiquidFeet

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Well, as one who has put in the time to rebuild my skiing from the ground up, it is a lot more complicated than just simply resistance. In order to effect the changes, you first have to understand the difference between what is desired and what is being performed. Often, those gaps stem from a fundamental misunderstanding of biomechanics and physics. And if you've never experienced what ski performance actually is, the student has no frame of reference to understand the gap. The more the student skis with their deadend technique, the more embedded it becomes. And the more embedded become the belief systems that are incorrect.

Frankly, if you are going to rebuild your skiing, it is going to require more than occasional group lessons. You are going to require a coach. That coach has to be not only competent (and even all level 3 instructors are not competent, but it is a better bet than level 2 instructors), but also has to be compatible with you.
Mike

QFT.
 

markojp

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The 'dead end technique' isn't the big deal, it's the time and state of mind necessary to create new neural pathways that's the kicker. Old ideas die hard. As George Clinton says, "free your mind and you a$$ will follow."
 

Chris V.

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Ski lessons are the biggest scam in ski industry ( the kids lessons doubly so). You pay exorbitant amounts to have a lesson with an indifferent “pro” who gets $12/hour (resort gets by far the most of what you pay). You are out in a group with people who are mismatched, so you are either bored or just trying to survive, there is always one a$$hole in the group that bugs everyone. In the meantime, your kid is in a group with an instructor who could barely ski and spends all her/his time dealing with a couple of spoiled bratty kids from the city. Sounds familiar?

If you can swing it, bring your own group to the lesson, go for a private, and send your kids to the ski teams.

I'm surprised this didn't get more of a rise out of people. I agree that prices are often exorbitant, and that the resorts treat instructors poorly. However, it's inaccurate to be painting instructors as a group as indifferent. On the contrary, it's a labor of love for most, which is the only reason that the resorts can get away with paying so little. With the people skills and resources that they need to bring to the job to be able to perform effectively, virtually all instructors could be making far more money doing something else. They do the job because they like bringing others into the sport that they love. For most instructors in most locations, just earning enough money to cover basic living expenses is a huge challenge. Also, it has been my experience that most instructors put considerable effort into improving both their own skiing and their teaching skills. Training perks are a big motivation for many.

The better schools strive hard to offer a good product by working to sort out groups that are compatible as to both current ability and objectives. If one student is having a hard time keeping up, many will bring in another instructor or supervisor to help, or move the student to a different class. A good instructor should be able to create a focus and a progression for the group, while adjusting it to the needs of the individual students. Possibly more advanced students can ski terrain that is more difficult, while the others ski an easier groomed part of the run next to it. Or there could be adjustments to the task. Always there should be individualized feedback. The students, too, need to understand that there will always be variations in ability and learning pace within the group, and leave their egos locked in their parked cars--neither feel insulted because the rest of the group isn't good enough, nor intimidated because others are better.

Getting good improvement from a one-off lesson is always a dicey proposition--a discussion for another day.
 

markojp

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Ski lessons are the biggest scam in ski industry ( the kids lessons doubly so). You pay exorbitant amounts to have a lesson with an indifferent “pro” who gets $12/hour (resort gets by far the most of what you pay). You are out in a group with people who are mismatched, so you are either bored or just trying to survive, there is always one a$$hole in the group that bugs everyone. In the meantime, your kid is in a group with an instructor who could barely ski and spends all her/his time dealing with a couple of spoiled bratty kids from the city. Sounds familiar?

If you can swing it, bring your own group to the lesson, go for a private, and send your kids to the ski teams.

Dear Alex. This is patently offensive on many levels and a clear sign this thread has run its course. Your opinion is most certainly NOT universal fact.
 
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Erik Timmerman

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I'm surprised this didn't get more of a rise out of people.

Speaking for myself here, but after a while you learn to recognize trolling and you just leave the bait sitting in the water.

On the topic of this thread though, I spent the last two days understudying the PSIA-E L3 exam, and my takeaway (thetis relevant to this thread) is that you can find god instructors in the most unlikely places. There were people that stood out from little places like Hidden Valley, PA, Bear Creek (?), PA, Wintergreen, VA. I'll bet it would not cost an arm and a leg to ski with these people. They're not perfect, (who is) but they are certainly devoted to improving themselves and others, and it beats just pounding around doing the same old thing you've always done. Go try them. To quote Warren Miller, "if you don't do it now, you'll just be one year older when you do."
 

Scruffy

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Josh Matta

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yes if you south western PA, go to Hidden Valley and request Brandon Bock(the new L3) or Micheal Ambrocik(alpine L3), Mike is also a Tele and Snowboard L3.

I would say another thing that keep peoples from taking ski lessons is think they have to go to some destination resort to get better, when honestly you can learn to be an expert skier on a 300 foot, light blue pitch, with the right coaching or self coaching.
 
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mister moose

mister moose

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Ski lessons are the biggest scam in ski industry ( the kids lessons doubly so). You pay exorbitant amounts to have a lesson with an indifferent “pro” who gets $12/hour (resort gets by far the most of what you pay). You are out in a group with people who are mismatched, so you are either bored or just trying to survive, there is always one a$$hole in the group that bugs everyone. In the meantime, your kid is in a group with an instructor who could barely ski and spends all her/his time dealing with a couple of spoiled bratty kids from the city. Sounds familiar?
Speaking for myself here, but after a while you learn to recognize trolling and you just leave the bait sitting in the water.
Might be trolling, but I see it as doing a good job expressing the kind of comments I've heard and why I started the thread.

On the topic of this thread though, I spent the last two days understudying the PSIA-E L3 exam, and my takeaway (thetis relevant to this thread) is that you can find god instructors in the most unlikely places.
Please publish this ski god list!

I would say another thing that keep peoples from taking ski lessons is think they have to go to some destination resort to get better, when honestly you can learn to be an expert skier on a 300 foot, light blue pitch, with the right coaching or self coaching.
Very true. But is there a higher percentage of god instructors at a high profile destination resort than a local small hill?

Perhaps some of what is being illuminated here is that the more pro-active person who accurately describes his needs and makes sure he gets paired with a suitable class/instructor has a better experience than somone who just shows up and plays ski instructor plinko and takes whatever falls from the sky.
 

Josh Matta

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Very true. But is there a higher percentage of god instructors at a high profile destination resort than a local small hill?

sure, but they are much more expensive, and even at that expense you are not guaranteed one of those good instructors unless you asked for them.
 
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