What is going on with these Kendo's?

[Atomicman]

This makes sense but wouldn't the shop see a burr when they re-inspected and checked the edges. I can understand it being missed the first time through but if someone brought them in for a problem wouldn't they see it?

If they didn't know they had to remove the hanging burr after the initial tune, how would they know it needed to be done when you brought them back? And you can't see it anyway. It is microscopic but wreaks much havoc! The issue you are having is exactly why I learned to tune my own skis. I can't tell you how many times this happened to me over the the years before I learned to do it myself. All excited to get freshly tuned skis back and they virtually have a mind of their own and are unskiable!

 

[Atomicman]

I experienced this a long time ago, and I have skied with Bob so I'm speaking from some experience.
They have been "over tuned".
De-Tune them with a gummy stone. If that doesn't work, then take them back to the shop that tuned them, and tell them your issues, have them base ground to flat and have them tuned to a 1/2.

It has nothing to do with the angle of the side edge. What is "overtuned" anyway?

If they don't take the hanging burr off after tuning the side edge again the OP is just going to have a lesser performing edge angle with the same erratic performance.

Our skis are razor sharp, tip to tail. All of skis are no matter width are tuned .7/3 except our Slaloms with are .7 /4. They all ski like a dream, smooth & predictable. Even my brand new Enforcer 100 came from the factory with a 1/3.....THEY SKIED ABSOLUTELY PERFECTLY RIGHT OUT OF THE WRAPPER. EXCEPT FOR ME WAXING THEM!

It's not the geometry, it's a simple issue. forget gummi stone, you are just going to dull your edges. I only use a gummi as the last step in the tuning process at a 45 degree angle to the edge point with ABSOLUTEY -0- ZERO pressure, to remove any slight burr on the edge point from the tuning process.

By the way since I always have a surgical stone in my pocket, I have fixed numerous peoples ski right on the hill with the same issue. Someone saying, I just had my skis tuned and now they skis totally erratic......They are shocked when I am done (yes right on the slope) they ski perfect!

 

[cantunamunch]

This makes sense but wouldn't the shop see a burr when they re-inspected and checked the edges. I can understand it being missed the first time through but if someone brought them in for a problem wouldn't they see it?

No, because half of it is invisible (folded over) and the visible parts are only visible as fuzzy glints if you're shining a spotlight onto the edge at just the right angle against a black background. And anyone who needs reading glasses won't see them even then, not even if they have the glasses on.

This is one of those problems where the fix IS the diagnosis.

PS, I still think hubby might be inconsistent in applying tip pressure - but

 

[Atomicman]

My issues were inconsistent, some runs fine, some not. But there was always this apprehension it would start at any moment, and that didn’t help my skiing. When I went to a more refined ski I then felt I started to really progress in ability.

A hanging bur reacts a bit differently in different snow. The higher the moisture content or harder the snow is the worse they ski. If it is soft or fairly consistent soft / powdery, not so bad! Completely unmanageable on man-made snow!

 

[Tricia]

It has nothing to do with the angle of the side edge. What is "overtuned" anyway?

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, but I was talking about the base bevel.
This is why I suggested that he get a base grind and start fresh with a 1/2

Keep in mind that I've skied with Bob and a ski that is more like a .5 or .75 is not going to work for him. For him that is overtuned.

 

[cantunamunch]

Keep in mind that I've skied with Bob and a ski that is more like a .5 or .75 is not going to work for him. For him that is overtuned.

I suspected that this might be the case but doesn't that have roots further up in the chain, boot &c?

 

[François Pugh]

Ski chatter happens when the ski edge bites in and grips, but then the ski flexes and loses grip.
It could be that before the tune, the edge angle was not acute enough (or was missing that hanging bur) to bight in the first place, but it is now. Trying a 1 base 2 side might be the answer, if removing the bur isn't.

 

[cantunamunch]

Ski chatter happens when the ski edge bites in and grips, but then the ski flexes and loses grip..

...or isn't flexed enough, consistently enough, to sustain the turn it first engaged, and loses grip.

 

[oldfashoned]

I still have the kendo’s, in to good of shape to let go. I’ll take a close look at them, base and edges.
The boot fitter said I should take them out again, might be surprised with a proper fitted performance boot would drive it better.

 

[Seldomski]

@Pat AKA mustski your story is very similar to mine. Please report what you see between the boot and binding. Is there a gap?

I found I could ski OK in soft snow with the gap between the boot and binding. On hardpack, the skis were unruly. Now that the gap has been closed, the ski is better in all conditions. I could see marks on my boots showing the ski was chattering up and down relative to my boot.

 

[oldfashoned]

Another full disclosure: I am on my 5th pair of Kendo since 2011. Had/have several pairs of Kastle also.

Are you mounting these on the line?
Mine are 177 and I seem to remember the tails hang up on the moguls. Probably just me

 

[Atomicman]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, but I was talking about the base bevel.
This is why I suggested that he get a base grind and start fresh with a 1/2

Keep in mind that I've skied with Bob and a ski that is more like a .5 or .75 is not going to work for him. For him that is overtuned.

See, I would call that under-tuned. Over tuned would be over a 1 degree!

I highly doubt they put a .5 on his Kendo on a machine tune , unless specifically aksed for abd even then, a lot folks complain they get a 1 degree! But a simple fix to try before going all radical and retuning for no reason, is to make sure any hanging burr is knocked off! And if they did underbevel his ski, there is NO Reason to grind 'em again,......you just increase the base bevel to a 1 degree! Again side edge is not the issue!

 

[Atomicman]

I suspected that this might be the case but doesn't that have roots further up in the chain, boot &c?

Highly unlikely they did a .5 or .75 on the machine unless this was specifically asked for. Before I would do anything else....knocking the hanging burr off is FREE and SIMPLE! And if you have every skied with a ski with a hanging burr, it is like magic when removed.

 

[Atomicman]

...or isn't flexed enough, consistently enough, to sustain the turn it first engaged, and loses grip.

It is really caused by the skier applying the wrong amount of pressure at the wrong time in the wrong way. And also depends on where the chatter is emanating from. ITgenerally happens on very hard snow that is a bit steeper and is a technique issue. Generally on a mild slope even on hard snow no chatter present...steepin it and WHOA!

I think he is using the term chatter, but not in the traditional sense that we think about it! When this comes up just after being tuned...IT IS ALMOST 100% OF THE TIME A HANGING BURR!

 

[KingGrump]

Are you mounting these on the line?
Mine are 177 and I seem to remember the tails hang up on the moguls. Probably just me

Every pair on the line.

I do a fair amount of bumps. They do fine in them.
The tails are stiff. They take more to a drifting motion rather than a pivoting motion when low in the trough.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

PS, I still think hubby might be inconsistent in applying tip pressure - but

Except that he skied the Kendos last season with no issues, including in trees and bumps. Also, I was skiing with him and it didn't look like that to me.

@Pat AKA mustski your story is very similar to mine. Please report what you see between the boot and binding. Is there a gap?

I found I could ski OK in soft snow with the gap between the boot and binding. On hardpack, the skis were unruly. Now that the gap has been closed, the ski is better in all conditions. I could see marks on my boots showing the ski was chattering up and down relative to my boot.

He's going check it when he gets home so I'll let you know.

It is really caused by the skier applying the wrong amount of pressure at the wrong time in the wrong way. And also depends on where the chatter is emanating from. ITgenerally happens on very hard snow that is a bit steeper and is a technique issue. Generally on a mild slope even on hard snow no chatter present...steepin it and WHOA!

Actually it's the opposite. While turning on steeps and with momentum, it's less problematic. The biggest issue is when he is coming to a stop on a run out - then the ski really gets jumping up and down.

I suspected that this might be the case but doesn't that have roots further up in the chain, boot &c?

Yes, this is still a possibility. However, he has no issues with the new boots and his Elans. The day we skied with Tricia, he was already in the new boots and on his Elans. Additionally, he did take the Kendos off and switched the skis to the other foot to see if it made a difference. It did - the problem was much worse.

We will ski again tomorrow and see if detuning helped. If not, we may have them adjust the bindings to his old boots - Head Raptors and then ski the Kendos. That should answer the boot/canting question.

 

[Atomicman]

Except that he skied the Kendos last season with no issues, including in trees and bumps. Also, I was skiing with him and it didn't look like that to me.



He's going check it when he gets home so I'll let you know.


Actually it's the opposite. While turning on steeps and with momentum, it's less problematic. The biggest issue is when he is coming to a stop on a run out - then the ski really gets jumping up and down.


Yes, this is still a possibility. However, he has no issues with the new boots and his Elans. The day we skied with Tricia, he was already in the new boots and on his Elans. Additionally, he did take the Kendos off and switched the skis to the other foot to see if it made a difference. It did - the problem was much worse.

We will ski again tomorrow and see if detuning helped. If not, we may have them adjust the bindings to his old boots - Head Raptors and then ski the Kendos. That should answer the boot/canting question.

That is not the traditional way I think of chatter. But a Hanging burr will make it extremely difficult to sideslip the ski, which in essence what your doing in a hockey type stop on a runout.

 

[Tricia]

See, I would call that under-tuned. Over tuned would be over a 1 degree!

I highly doubt they put a .5 on his Kendo on a machine tune , unless specifically aksed for abd even then, a lot folks complain they get a 1 degree! But a simple fix to try before going all radical and retuning for no reason, is to make sure any hanging burr is knocked off! And if they did underbevel his ski, there is NO Reason to grind 'em again,......you just increase the base bevel to a 1 degree! Again side edge is not the issue!

Thanks for the explanation.
I do understand that the side edge is not the issue, and base bevel is the possible question here, but the over tune or under tune is where you and I were thinking same but different.
Perhaps my dyslexia has affected my brain.

 

[James]

We will ski again tomorrow and see if detuning helped. If not, we may have them adjust the bindings to his old boots - Head Raptors and then ski the Kendos. That should answer the boot/canting question.

What exactly did the detuning consist of? Hopefully not much.

In general, this scenario is how shops butcher skis. It's also the number one thing overlooked when buying used skis esp online. Customer comes back and complains, so they just go to town on the tips and tails, sawing with a diamond stone at 45deg. I've skied an Mx83 given this treatment. The tips would never bite in a short turn. Turned our they'd been butchered beyond recovery. Could never grind that much edge dulled at 45 deg out. Such a shame.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

What exactly did the detuning consist of? Hopefully not much.

In general, this scenario is how shops butcher skis. It's also the number one thing overlooked when buying used skis esp online. Customer comes back and complains, so they just go to town on the tips and tails, sawing with a diamond stone at 45deg. I've skied an Mx83 given this treatment. The tips would never bite in a short turn. Turned our they'd been butchered beyond recovery. Could never grind that much edge dulled at 45 deg out. Such a shame.

Actually, my hubby just used a gummy on the tips and tails and then along the edges for any burrs. The shop looked at them yesterday and insisted everything was perfect and to factory specs.

@Pat AKA mustski your story is very similar to mine. Please report what you see between the boot and binding. Is there a gap?

I found I could ski OK in soft snow with the gap between the boot and binding. On hardpack, the skis were unruly. Now that the gap has been closed, the ski is better in all conditions. I could see marks on my boots showing the ski was chattering up and down relative to my boot.

We checked the boots and the boot binding connection looks pretty much perfect so it's not that. Hopefully, it's a detuning. If not, boot switch and if there is still a problem, back to the shop for a complete redo.