What is a hip dump?

[LiquidFeet]

Whew. So, what’s platform angle? How is that different from edge angle And what is its relationship to edge hold?

Platform angle is the angle between the ski and the skier. It determines if the ski can grip or not on hard snow.
The two imaginary lines that form this angle are...
1. a line from side-to-side across the ski
2. a line from the CoM down to the ski

For the ski to grip, not slip, this platform angle needs to be 90º or less.
This image from Bob Barnes illustrates this phenomenon.

 

[LiquidFeet]

...and another one from Bob.

 

[geepers]

And yes, others have noted that there can be A-framing, which will mean the knees are not both pointed the same direction.

Are both knees pointed in the same direction, and in the direction of the turn?

Hmm... how far do we take this - knees not pointing in the same direction?

 

[geepers]

Platform angle is the angle between the ski and the skier. It determines if the ski can grip or not on hard snow.
The two imaginary lines that form this angle are...
1. a line from side-to-side across the ski
2. a line from the CoM down to the ski

For the ski to grip, not slip, this platform angle needs to be 90º or less.
This image from Bob Barnes illustrates this phenomenon.

View attachment 83847

Just a little extra to for the understanding of platform angle...

2. a line from the CoM down to the ski - it's where the ski engages with the snow. On a hard surface it will be just the edge of the ski. Which is why it needs more angulation to hold platform angle on a wide ski on a hard base than a narrow ski in the same conditions.

 

[markojp]

Hmm... how far do we take this - knees not pointing in the same direction?

Lindsey was a classic A-framer. It's been said by some that alignment issues and this habit were the base cause of many of her crashes and subsequent injuries. ( The first picture isn't an issue. The second, yes.) That said, in the stills above, she has platform angle to burn and all her weight is clearly directed to the outside ski. The lower lads have platform angle as well, but they're pretty much completely out of room for their inside ski. What I always find amusing is that 'hip on the snow' as a tech skiing 'cool' outcome is usually on a relatively soft surface. WC guys and gals aren't concerned about their hip on the snow. They actually are concerned about 'bottoming out' the boot and crashing. They also want to be off their edges as quickly as they can. They need the angles (no more than necessary.. more is slow) to manage forces that would fold 99.8% of us here. In your photo's, I'm guessing Lindsey is dealing with a minimum of double, if not triple the loads and a much much harder snow surface than either of the guys in the two lower pictures.

Anyhow....

 

[geepers]

Lindsey was a classic A-framer. It's been said by some that alignment issues and this habit were the base cause of many of her crashes and subsequent injuries. ( The first picture isn't an issue. The second, yes.) That said, in the stills above, she has platform angle to burn and all her weight is clearly directed to the outside ski. The lower lads have platform angle as well, but they're pretty much completely out of room for their inside ski. What I always find amusing is that 'hip on the snow' as a tech skiing 'cool' outcome is usually on a relatively soft surface. WC guys and gals aren't concerned about their hip on the snow. They actually are concerned about 'bottoming out' the boot and crashing. They also want to be off their edges as quickly as they can. They need the angles (no more than necessary.. more is slow) to manage forces that would fold 99.8% of us here. In your photo's, I'm guessing Lindsey is dealing with a minimum of double, if not triple the loads and a much much harder snow surface than either of the guys in the two lower pictures.

Anyhow....

Just trying to separate the essential from the idiosyncratic in my own mind.

Jamt's description of hip dump as rotation of the lower leg around the subtalar joint fit exactly with a guy I skied with in a workshop last year. At the time had no idea how to address that issue if he turned up in assessed teach. He ended up in some-one else's group however I have seen the issue before and I'm pretty sure there were times I'd have to have entered a guilty plea. Now at least I have much more idea of cause and cure.

The knees in same direction... Well I picked a couple of skiers with a strong track record. One has 82 wins. The other (same guy in both photos) is a member of his national demo team (has been for quite a while) and is amongst he best ski instructors on the planet. So how important are knees pointing in the same direction?

Appreciate your points re Vonn and soft snow promo photos so how about some-one more contemporary?

 

[Chris V.]

The knees in same direction... Well I picked a couple of skiers with a strong track record. One has 82 wins. The other (same guy in both photos) is a member of his national demo team (has been for quite a while) and is amongst he best ski instructors on the planet. So how important are knees pointing in the same direction?

I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb in saying that the relationships between body parts in World Cup racers, and in other ultra-high performance skiers, who are developing extreme vertical separation and extreme edge angles, are likely to look a bit different from what we would see in the great majority of recreational skiers, even very good ones. Certain rules of thumb as to what is good or bad will hold true for the great masses of skiers, but there may be variability at the highest levels.

Thank you geepers, and everyone, for the illuminating photos and comments.

 

[jimtransition]

To me a definition of hip dumping would be the creation of edge angle by dropping the hip rather than tipping the lower legs. That isn't to say that everyone who a frames is hip dumping, at a certain point you have to allow the inside ski to be a little flatter than the outside, otherwise you boot out and this happens.
Hip dumping isn't a precisely defined term so it means different things to different people, but I wouldn't call any of the racers or demonstrators posted in this thread hip dumpers.

 

[Skitechniek]

Imo a hip dump is rotation around te subtalar joint as well. Both knees pointing in the same direction would be an indication of someone hip dumping.
And looking at women knee angles is not fair imo, their q-angle is way bigger than the q-angle of men, hence all women look a-framed.

Any thoughts on how to fix hip dumping? How do other people adress hip dump?

@jimtransition
LOL! Nice one. Although booting out wasn't the problem imo.

 

[François Pugh]

You only make your best turn once, and pobody's nerfect. I'm sure you can find great athletes making great turns with a tiny bit of hip dumping included. Another point I have is never say never; there may be some extenuating circumstances where it is necessary to break the general rules of proper form to position the mass where it is needed and obtain the desired tipping angle.

To bring it to a less complicated level not requiring a degree in kinesiology, it seems from seeing all the pictures that the problem is alignment of the hips in a direction that is not consistent with where the inside knee is pointing. Hence the solution would seem to be proper control of that inside knee (and by extension tipping of lower inside leg).

 

[LiquidFeet]

This post is for people reading here who suspect they might be hip dumpers and don't know how to get rid of it. I used to hip drop. Speaking totally from experience, here is what I did and how I got rid of it.

How to do a classic hip dump:
1. Focus on getting hip to snow to impress self and whoever might be watching.
2. Enable the hip drop by rotating the pelvis to the outside of the turn at initiation.
3. Drop hip as low as possible.
4. Angulate to get skis edged, gripping and carving as turn progresses.
5. Focus is almost totally on the hip/pelvis area; start turn with movements at the hip/pelvis; focus on the outward bend of the upper body at the pelvis to control angulation.
6. This hip/pelvis focus leaves foot/ankle and lower leg movements passive and subservient to everything else. Passive ankles plus rotating the pelvis to face the outside of the turn lead to rotation of the leg over the subtalar joint, jamt's point made upthread.
7. Visible signs of hip drop:
---dramatic counter
---skier aft and inside at turn finish necessitating a massive up-and-over initiation for new turn
---park-n-ride if skier rushes the hip drop and holds the carve
---highest edge angle may be below apex if skier's hip drop is slow
---dramatic A-frame if skier ignores tipping the inside ski/foot
---outside ski wash if upper body is under-angulated (grip is a platform angle issue).

How to purge the hip dump habit:
1. Focus on line, turn shape and speed, not aesthetics of the turn, not audience; lose the low hip focus.
2. Control line, turn shape and speed with movements of the ski/foot/ankle and lower leg.
3. Initiate turn with movements of the new inside foot/ankle/leg: shorten/flex that leg and tip that foot at the ankle. The ankle-tipping fixes the subtalar joint issue pointed out by jamt upthread.
4. Focus on keeping the new inside foot as far back up under the body as possible; do not let it wander outward. Keeping it up under the body usually takes care of angulation and platform angle (two birds with one stone). This movement is essential in purging the hip dump: keep the mental focus on the new inside foot.
5. This new inside foot focus involves holding the inside foot back, keeping the ankle/ski tipped onto its little toe edge, bringing that knee up to the chest, and feeling that inside boot slide up alongside the outside leg towards its knee.
6. Focusing on keeping upper body as upright as possible (in the frontal plane; IOW don't bank); there is no need to rotate the pelvis into a countered position; this focus on its own will usually create appropriate angulation and counter to keep the ski gripping/carving.
7. Adjust line/turn shape with rate and intensity of inside leg shortening/flexing.
8. Visible signs that hip drop is not happening:
---counter is not dramatic
---skier is not aft and inside at turn finish
---dramatic A-frame will probably not happen unless there's an alignment issue
---park-n-ride can still happen if skier rushes the initiation then holds it
---highest edge angle may still be below apex if skier does not begin to release turn just after the fall line
---outside ski wash can still happen if upper body is under-angulated (grip is a platform angle issue)

For getting hip to snow when hip dump is not habitual, refer to @mike_m's thread on Rookie Academy here: https://www.pugski.com/threads/new-zealand-advanced-training-takeaways-2019.16295/

 

[markojp]

Just trying to separate the essential from the idiosyncratic in my own mind.

Jamt's description of hip dump as rotation of the lower leg around the subtalar joint fit exactly with a guy I skied with in a workshop last year. At the time had no idea how to address that issue if he turned up in assessed teach. He ended up in some-one else's group however I have seen the issue before and I'm pretty sure there were times I'd have to have entered a guilty plea. Now at least I have much more idea of cause and cure.

The knees in same direction... Well I picked a couple of skiers with a strong track record. One has 82 wins. The other (same guy in both photos) is a member of his national demo team (has been for quite a while) and is amongst he best ski instructors on the planet. So how important are knees pointing in the same direction?

Appreciate your points re Vonn and soft snow promo photos so how about some-one more contemporary?

Alice Rips. So does Mikaela. Both their fundamental mechanics are better than Lindsey's. That takes nothing away from Lindsey's record. Lindsey and Reilly ski from their feet. The hip doesn't lead tipping like any aspirants' skiing that we witness on the hill. How about Mike Rogan? Classic A framer. Still skis from his feet and rips. Eric L has better mechanics though. Back to Reilly, I'm sure he'd be the first to tell you that the surfaces he's skiing on in Japan for compa are nothing like an injected WC hill. Here's the kicker. Everyone mentioned above has my greatest respect. Theres something to learn from them all. Lindsey? At the top of her game, her flow and feel for terrain was magical and second to none.

 

[geepers]

To me a definition of hip dumping would be the creation of edge angle by dropping the hip rather than tipping the lower legs. That isn't to say that everyone who a frames is hip dumping, at a certain point you have to allow the inside ski to be a little flatter than the outside, otherwise you boot out and this happens.
Hip dumping isn't a precisely defined term so it means different things to different people, but I wouldn't call any of the racers or demonstrators posted in this thread hip dumpers.

Now that's a high side. Ouch.

 

[Seldomski]

Outside of this forum (and the defunct epicski), where is 'hip dump' said? I have never heard this from instructors in past decade or anyone in 'real life' when talking about skiing or movement analysis. Is this something instructors say to each other about students outside of their lessons or in training?

I guess if you told a student they were "hip dumping," it is like saying "don't think about a pink elephant." They may become very conscious of their hips, which is the opposite of what you want (if I am understanding correctly - correction is based on more active feet). So maybe it is more useful to talk about the student's feet to get them to think about their feet.

So instead of calling it 'hip dump,' maybe there is a more useful thing for communicating? Like 'sloppy foot' or 'lazy ankles' or something?

 

[Chris V.]

Is this something instructors say to each other about students outside of their lessons or in training??

Yes.

So maybe it is more useful to talk about the student's feet to get them to think about their feet.

Agreed!

 

[geepers]

I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb in saying that the relationships between body parts in World Cup racers, and in other ultra-high performance skiers, who are developing extreme vertical separation and extreme edge angles, are likely to look a bit different from what we would see in the great majority of recreational skiers, even very good ones. Certain rules of thumb as to what is good or bad will hold true for the great masses of skiers, but there may be variability at the highest levels.

Thank you geepers, and everyone, for the illuminating photos and comments.

So at lower levels of performance we'd expect to see knees pointed more in the same direction?

Maybe... then again...

Back to Reilly

It wasn't Reilly. Although they've been known to ski in identical outfits. Here's Reilly's knees...

How to purge the hip dump habit:

That post is an excellent summary.

 

[dbostedo]

Outside of this forum (and the defunct epicski), where is 'hip dump' said?

Searching for skiing "hip dump" on Google gives some results, though PugSki is very, very prevalent in the results. Here are a couple of others it came up with:

http://www.effectiveskiing.com/Topic/Hip_dump
http://wendellmoore.blogspot.com/2015/02/hip-drop-versus-hip-dump.html
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=2961750
http://www.skiervillage.com/archive/index.php/t-1966.html

And of course, there's the Kate Howe video posted early in the thread:

 

[LiquidFeet]

Outside of this forum (and the defunct epicski), where is 'hip dump' said?....

Hip dump is a term used in instructor circles, especially when doing MA from videos. There are lots of terms describing movement patterns that instructors use. Such phrases serve as short-cuts when discussing problems and their fixes. Examples: rotary push-off, upper body rotation, and park-n-ride. Using such technical terms is not appropriate when teaching a lesson, but when teaching instructors to communicate about skiing amongst themselves technical terms are useful.

 

[markojp]

Outside of this forum (and the defunct epicski), where is 'hip dump' said?

So instead of calling it 'hip dump,' maybe there is a more useful thing for communicating? Like 'sloppy foot' or 'lazy ankles' or something?

Hip dumping has nothing to do with 'sloppy ankles' or 'lazy foot', but show me a dumper, and I'll show you ankles and feet that are merely along for the ride. Hip dumping is exactly what it says it is; actively and aggressively moving the hips inside to tip the skis. What we're trying to do is get people to work from the bottom of the chain (feet) up. For many, this is a radical notion. Some here will argue until hell freezes over that they can't move their feet in their boots. The quick answer is when you 'move' the foot, and the boot moves. The boot moves, and the ski moves.... done! Then we work on the nuances of movements higher up the chain (knees, pelvis..)

Using the term? I've heard it used, and used it myself for a long time. Do I use it with a client? Depends on the relationship. If it's a new client or group, I won't say "you're hip dumping!" They'd likely say, "what the hell does than mean?" We'll talk about ski/snow performance, then I will certainly say, "I'm seeing turns initiated by moving the hip inside the new turn. This leads to the center of mass being behind and inside your intended direction of travel...", describe it's affect on ski snow interaction, then talk about how to 'be where we need to make skis work more effectively.' For me, that starts with skiing from the feet. It might sound convoluted, but on the hill, it's pretty quick, concise, and clear. If I know a client well and we're more in a 'coaching' relationship, sure, I'll say, " you're dumping. Stop it!" and we'll have a laugh because they know it's an issue they're working on and we'll return to a successful cue to access the movement pattern we want to ski more effectively and in balance. If I'm with a colleague and we're training staff and see someone hip dumping, sure, we'll say, " yep, he/she's dumping... let's get their legs under them and feet sorted out."

Hope that helps.

 

[markojp]

So at lower levels of performance we'd expect to see knees pointed more in the same direction?

Maybe... then again...

Still photos are often a deep, dark, rabbit hole. Let's look at some 4D skiing. ' Parallel shins ' is a shorthand guide, not a hard, fast rule. Skiing is thankfully full of grey areas and people who compensate phenominally well at incredibly high levels.

How about some great vintage Lindsey flow?


... and free skiing Ted:


... and Lorraine Huber.