What is a hip dump?

[jack97]

Yes, that's hip dumping. You are correct, park-n-ride IS a cue that hip dumping is happening, and this is considered a bad thing by many instructors, examiners, and trainers. Park-n-ride has limited use.

But it's fun.

So.... if after a long day on the hill and your legs are close to toast what's wrong with a park and ride to end the day with a fun ride down?

 

[LiquidFeet]

Exactly.

 

[JESinstr]

So.... if after a long day on the hill and your legs are close to toast what's wrong with a park and ride to end the day with a fun ride down?

Hate to break it to ya but the reason your legs are toast is that you were probably parking and riding all day long. Park and ride is a static response to a dynamic situation and as such, many muscles are unnecessarily stressed in and effort to continually seek centered balance as the turn develops.

 

[Tony S]

Hate to break it to ya but the reason your legs are toast is that you were probably parking and riding all day long.

Objection. Speculation, your honor.

When you only get out here and there, your legs get tired. Mine sure do, anyway. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

[Doby Man]

Basically, loss of the flow state is the biggest victim of hip dumping. Constant and continuous tipping gives beautiful flow and can only happen exclusively of hip dumping.

 

[JESinstr]

Objection. Speculation, your honor.

When you only get out here and there, your legs get tired. Mine sure do, anyway. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

You may be right. As long as your legs are tired and not burning.

 

[Jamt]

Yes, that's hip dumping. You are correct, park-n-ride IS a cue that hip dumping is happening, and this is considered a bad thing by many instructors, examiners, and trainers. Park-n-ride has limited use.

But it's fun.

They often come together yes, but I'm pretty sure I can hip dump without being static. Conversely I'm also pretty sure I can ski static and not dump the hip.

Here is some "high level" hip dumping:

 

[jack97]

Hate to break it to ya but the reason your legs are toast is that you were probably parking and riding all day long. Park and ride is a static response to a dynamic situation and as such, many muscles are unnecessarily stressed in and effort to continually seek centered balance as the turn develops.

Objection. Speculation, your honor.

When you only get out here and there, your legs get tired. Mine sure do, anyway. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

lol..... my legs gets toasted in ways other than skiing groomed. I know I park and ride on the last flat section of the day.

 

[karlo]

this video by kate Howe

Notice the Kate Howe's pelvis. Then notice the pelvis in the Up and Over video @Josh Matta posted. Looks the same to me, leveling the pelvis.

So, that opening segment in Up and Over, Mikaela Shiffrin passing a gate, is that a recreational skier's hip dump? Appears to me her upper body is facing the outside ski. And what's the pelvis doing? @LiquidFeet, care to chime in?

 

[Josh Matta]

like I said hip dumping is about COM relationship compared to our Base of support, if you are balanced on your inside ski you hip dumped.

 

[karlo]

hip dumping is about COM relationship compared to our Base of support

This, plus what @LiquidFeet wrote about being way aft and low, then I gather that the surest cure is the skier has less nimbleness or agility to initiate the next turn, or make any changes of direction. It's not just looking for a low hip. And, it's not even looking for upper body rotation to the outside when the hip is low, cuz, that guy in @Jamt's photo looks like he can turn on a dime. Any upper body rotation he does is a simple quick twist along the vertical axis, no effort against gravity or the turning forces.

 

[JESinstr]

Karlos, I am impressed with your passion and pursuit of skiing knowledge.

I think @Josh Matta has a good point. I don't think we should identify hip dumping buy how close a skier's butt cheek is to the ground. These skiers are doing everything they can to shorten the inside leg because it is the best pathway for creating angles. Although damn close, note that neither has begun their release yet and are still balanced against the outside ski. And once they do, guess what? That new outside ski is positioned right where it needs to be for Mikaela to do her "get over it" which she begins to initiate just as the video clip cuts out.

 

[Tony S]

Still worth exploring and you can do up and overs in all sorts of packed terrain and turn sizes.

I'm thinking it's gonna be good for my sequential edge change issue.

 

[razie]

Hip dumping is when the hip puts the ski on edge rather than foot tipping. When the hip is the first to move into the new turn, dragging the skis on edge as a consequence.

It is very common, most skiers out there ski this way, few have refined the lower body movements and the separation required to lead with the lower body.

Here is an extreme example of even hip checking a few times, however, it this is not hip dumping, as that is not what is edging the skis, even though it looks like it, as he's reaching for angles... You can still see he's managing the feet independent of the hips.


Cheers

 

[karlo]

Here is an extreme example of even hip checking a few times, however, it this is not hip dumping

Someone needs to post a video of hip dumping. Who wants to video me?

 

[razie]

Someone needs to post a video of hip dumping. Who wants to video me?

look for carving videos... here's a high level hip dump, in the first turn here:


you can see how the leg gets long early and then dragged on edge with the hip... pretty refined, but still hip dumping. Together with the "bad counter" Jamt mentioned.

Even more obvious in this turn, again, good skier, but massive hip dumping in this turn:


You'll see many that refined hip dumping into some pretty good skiing... basically, when you look carefully, the "edging movements" are counter, shuffle the inside ski forward (make room for the hips to drop) and sit down.

This is kind'a the stages of improvement out there, as soon as a skier can dig an edge in, they tend to incline and rotate into the turn. Then in time they figure out the counter and start hip dumping. They're all forms of upper-body skiing.

Here's a comparison of the turn initiation that LF did for me a long time ago:

I still use it, because you can see the difference in turn mechanics pretty clearly... I was dragging the ski on edge from the hip vs JF clearly using the lower body and one of the obvious differences was the flexing, which separates the feet from the hips. I was getting big angles and bashing gates and everything, but not with "good" skiing...

 

[oldschoolskier]

Karlos, I am impressed with your passion and pursuit of skiing knowledge.

I think @Josh Matta has a good point. I don't think we should identify hip dumping buy how close a skier's butt cheek is to the ground. These skiers are doing everything they can to shorten the inside leg because it is the best pathway for creating angles. Although damn close, note that neither has begun their release yet and are still balanced against the outside ski. And once they do, guess what? That new outside ski is positioned right where it needs to be for Mikaela to do her "get over it" which she begins to initiate just as the video clip cuts out.


View attachment 38411

On left upper body over and back, on right over and forward.

You also see the difference in loading on the outside leg, on left not much, on right full forward pressure. Also applies to hand position.

Hip dump reduces the forward pressure on the outside ski resulting in slight back inward weighting. In the extreme slide out it or tail kick out.

At least how how I see it.

 

[dbostedo]

I still use it, because you can see the difference in turn mechanics pretty clearly... I was dragging the ski on edge from the hip vs JF clearly using the lower body and one of the obvious differences was the flexing, which separates the feet from the hips. I was getting big angles and bashing gates and everything, but not with "good" skiing...

@razie can you describe what you see in these pics a bit more? I'm not quite following what they are showing. Thanks.

 

[Jamt]

like I said hip dumping is about COM relationship compared to our Base of support, if you are balanced on your inside ski you hip dumped.

I don't agree. I can be balance on my inside ski without hip dumping, e.g. when I am skiing with only one ski. I can also hip dump without being balanced on the inside.

Karlos, I am impressed with your passion and pursuit of skiing knowledge.

I think @Josh Matta has a good point. I don't think we should identify hip dumping buy how close a skier's butt cheek is to the ground. These skiers are doing everything they can to shorten the inside leg because it is the best pathway for creating angles. Although damn close, note that neither has begun their release yet and are still balanced against the outside ski. And once they do, guess what? That new outside ski is positioned right where it needs to be for Mikaela to do her "get over it" which she begins to initiate just as the video clip cuts out.


View attachment 38411

One is hip dumped, one is not. It is not about where the hip is, it is how it got there. The left person (a psia demo team member) has rotated too much around the subtalar joint.
Left skier is also inside biased, which often goes hand in hand, but not necessarily.

 

[razie]

@razie can you describe what you see in these pics a bit more? I'm not quite following what they are showing. Thanks.

As I look at the edging specifically, the difference between the two frames for both skiers - the orange jacket's hip is the first part of the body to affect the feet, you can see he's basically "sitting down" to get from frame 1 to 2. The black jacket in the contrary, uses the lower body to edge the skis - whether it's feet/knees or inside/outside is not that relevant for this - that would be an even further refinement of turn mechanics.

Of course the hips move inside the turn in his case too, that's part of skiing: you can't decouple the feet from the hips for too long, as the apex will come soon and the body parts are all articulated and interact, but the question for me is: what puts the skis on edge and/or how.

Even for the orange jacket, you could argue that he had a "tipping or edging effort" in the outside foot as well, but since the feet were tightly coupled with the hips (by the long leg), that's the one mainly responsible, that's "the elephant in the room".

cheers