What is a hip dump?

[karlo]

I've seen the term used in this forum a number of times, described as undesirable. What is it? I think maybe I do it.

 

[Jamt]

There are many views on what hip dump is.
My definition is that hip dump is when the hip is moved or rotated without the movement having any functional advantage.
IMO the most common way of dumping the hip is counter that happens around the subtalar joint instead of the hip joint. It counters the body but de-edges the ski.

 

[JESinstr]

Karlo, I posted this video by kate Howe in the Carving Ma thread. Kate describes what hip dump is beginning a 5:00 in. Her solution begins at approximately 7:15 in. Pretty much in line with what @Jamt states above

 

[LiquidFeet]

Hip dump is a move often prompted by a desire to get the hip low to the snow, mimicking racers at the gate in GS.

To get the hip that low for that reason, the skier needs to turn the upper body to the outside of the turn (Jamt's subtalar joint observation). Once "countered," the skier can drop the hip low. Getting the hip near the snow in order to look like a racer is not a functional motivation. It is not prompted from a desire to ski a certain line at a certain speed, as it is with the racer. It's cosmetic. Since the skier is not doing this thing in order to make the skis follow a chosen line, the package of movements and results is quite different from what's happening with the GS skier at the gate.

Hip dump feels great. Dropping the hip that way can produce a carved turn, and for the skier just learning to carve, the resulting turn can be intoxicating. If the skier is learning to feel the skis carve, is this so bad? Most would say yes.

Usually the low hip happens without enough speed to justify it. The skier ends up riding the edged skis around the turn without any further need for movement. The dreaded "park-and-ride" happens after getting the hip into the low position. The hip-dumping skier will not be thinking about the amount of ski bend that low hip is making since that's not the motivation. Enjoyment of the sensations of a carving ski and hoping for admiration from the chair may be the focus.

The turn will be long and wide, most likely. Hopefully, the slope is unpopulated as the skier is immobilized and stuck.

At the end of a hip-dumped turn, the whole body needs to be propelled upward and forward, because the weight is dysfunctionally aft and low as the skis come around (because of that subtalar joint thing). The low and back position is dangerous for the ACL, should a fall happen. To start the new turn, the skier ends up having to push the body up and over the skis like a sack of potatoes. This up-down movement can feel rather dramatic. Wheee!!!

I know this movement pattern; I used to use it.

 

[Mothertucker]

It's where all the kool kids take their trash.

 

[PTskier]

In addition, the dumped hip can result in the knees getting higher and actually reducing the angle of the skis on the snow. We don't want to press the knees toward the snow, knees aren't made to bend sideways very far, but we certainly don't want to get them away from the snow inadvertently.

 

[Josh Matta]

to me it means moving our COM too fast inside separating it from our correct BOS ie the outside ski. The easiest way to correct hip dumping is doing up and overs....

 

[Monique]

Karlo, I posted this video by kate Howe in the Carving Ma thread. Kate describes what hip dump is beginning a 5:00 in. Her solution begins at approximately 7:15 in. Pretty much in line with what @Jamt states above

She's also seriously funny.

 

[Tony S]

to me it means moving our COM too fast inside separating it from our correct BOS ie the outside ski. The easiest way to correct hip dumping is doing up and overs....

More on up and overs, please. I don't know what that is.

 

[Josh Matta]

 

[tball]

I guess I didn't realize there is a difference between a hip dump and a hip check.

Are hip checks still cool? Or, did they go out of style along with yellow North Face onesies?

 

[JESinstr]

Good video to post for this topic Josh.

Aside from the main subject of early assumption and commitment to the outside ski, what also jumps out at me is the shortening role of the inside leg. In this drill, the demoers preemptively shorten/flex the inside leg. But as they exit the the fall line, the inside ski engages as the outside ski's edge angle builds in support of turning force management.

What also is important to observe is how the foot location of the shortened leg helps maintain the pelvis orientation as described by Kate Howe. In the course of normal advanced skiing, this shortening/flexing is accomplished as a progressive process that coincides with the need for a higher edge angle vs the lifting the ski.

IMO, this process is one that opens the door for proper angulation but it is an prerequisite ACTIVE,INTENTIONAL movement pattern and one that needs to be LEARNED and PRACTICED. Moreover as I said above, inside foot location (back and underneath or mass) is critical. Allowing the inside foot to slip forward encourages hip dump.

Another opinion is that lower level skiers have little or no active inside leg shortening process (because they are inclining more than angulating) and therefore run out of edge angle cutting the carving process short.

 

[François Pugh]

I guess I didn't realize there is a difference between a hip dump and a hip check.

Are hip checks still cool? Or, did they go out of style along with yellow North Face onesies?

With a short radius ski, e.g. 13 m, a hip check recovery can lead to the ski digging in with too much of a turn and you cart-wheeling down the slope. Can still be easily done with 27+ m radius skis though.

 

[Doby Man]

Two of the most refined outputs a skier can facilitate in high performance skiing is rhythm and flow. They both provide and are the result of both the aesthetics and timing of all movements. We know what rhythm is which is repeated DIRT or equity in both time and space. On the other hand, what is flow? How do we achieve it? Are we talking about the skis or the body. Or both?

Creating the essence of flow in our movements from only the body in isolation is meaningless. Ultimately, the flow facilitated in the body should be directly representative of flow produced at/from the ski. What is flow produced at the ski? It is the balance of pressure. More specifically, the creation, management and exploitation of the pressure, or forces, that transmit from ski to snow and snow to ski otherwise known as the interaction outcome, the returning capacity of which comes in the form of ground force reaction. To me that means we are turning the skis aggressively into the side of the hill in order to produce a collision. This “collision” provides the force that can be used to flex the ankles, knees and hips. It is the flexion that we allow and how we allow it that manages the pressure created under the ski.

Learning/developing a sense of feel of the ski through the sole of the foot is a key skill in creating, managing and exploiting pressure. The same pressure distribution analysis we would get from sensor technology like Carve can be measured immediately by your own complementary and previously installed neurology. Determining between the feeling of pressure supplied by the body and resultant pressure supplied by the ground might be a first step. Visualize the layers of material, the ski base, core, top skin, binding plate, plastic boot sole, liner and footbed and the transmission of energy that must occur through all those layers from the snow to your foot. Now, instead, imagine the base of the ski as the sole of your foot. A billion dollars has gone into the R&D to make that transmission of energy as hamper free as possible - as if the ski “is” your foot. An extension of the body. As much or even more R&D $ has gone into the organo-mechanical device we call a ski boot than any other prosthetic device manufactured by the medical industry.

Hip dumping’s worst outcome is an over rotation and rearward shift that produces the loss of this dynamic pressure before the end of the turn. While the purpose for some counter is for the sake of directing our pressure to the outside ski, once the rotation is given time and room to continue too far to the outside, we are then too far rotated to make the return trip in time for the next turn. Over rotation also”rotates” the CoM into a more aft position. Between being aft and late, improvisational supplemental mechanics with a compensatory outcome must be produced to complete the turn and the skiing is no longer “clean” and loses the rhythmical, progressive and constant pressure (“dynamic” pressure) we seek to maintain in our higher end skiing.

 

[Tony S]

We know what rhythm is which is repeated DIRT or equity in both time and space.

Okay, I don't understand that sentence at all.

 

[karlo]

hip dump is when the hip is moved or rotated without the movement having any functional advantage

I posted this video by kate Howe in the Carving Ma thread. Kate describes what hip dump is beginning a 5:00 in. Her solution begins at approximately 7:15 in. Pretty much in line with what @Jamt states above

To get the hip that low for that reason, the skier needs to turn the upper body to the outside of the turn (Jamt's subtalar joint observation). Once "countered," the skier can drop the hip low

Hip dumping’s worst outcome is an over rotation and rearward shift

So, I gather that over rotation of the hip is the cue. So, a very early lowering of the hip, to get on high angle edge very early, resulting in "park and ride" to another big, fast shift of legs under the body, to the other edge, is not hip dumping, right? I was thinking that park and ride, which I sometimes do for fun, to practice fast high-edge to high-edge, is a cue that hip dumping is happening, and that this is a bad thing.

 

[karlo]

Okay, I don't understand that sentence at all.

From my experience, having gotten through many of @Dobyman's posts, you don't have to. He typically sums up nicely in the last paragraph or sentences. I now just skip down there

 

[Tony S]

Thanks, Josh. I will definitely try this one.

 

[Josh Matta]

You do not hip dump so you should find it pretty easy .

Still worth exploring and you can do up and overs in all sorts of packed terrain and turn sizes.

 

[LiquidFeet]

So, I gather that over rotation of the hip is the cue. So, a very early lowering of the hip, to get on high angle edge very early, resulting in "park and ride" to another big, fast shift of legs under the body, to the other edge, is not hip dumping, right? I was thinking that park and ride, which I sometimes do for fun, to practice fast high-edge to high-edge, is a cue that hip dumping is happening, and that this is a bad thing.

You say: "A very early lowering of the hip, to get on high angle edge very early, resulting in "park and ride" to another big, fast shift of legs under the body, to the other edge, IS hip dumping." (FIFY) Early rotation of the upper body to face the outside of the turn accompanies it.

Yes, that's hip dumping. You are correct, park-n-ride IS a cue that hip dumping is happening, and this is considered a bad thing by many instructors, examiners, and trainers. Park-n-ride has limited use.

But it's fun.