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Uncle-A

In the words of Paul Simon "You can call me Al"
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"Good" compared to what point in time. In my 50 years of skiing we have been through many teaching methods and what was good at one point was inefficient at another point or poor position by some other teaching method. In fact that kind of bothers me about skiing, once you are "Good" at one method along comes another method of teaching and your not good until you ski like that new method. The rules keep changing of what is good, so I go back to my first post about going out and enjoy the mountain. @Philpug said above "Conscious Competence", a "good skier" can ski all of the terrain all of the time in any condition. Take note that it does not say anything about how that skier looks it just says what a "Good" skier can do.
 

Goose

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Conscious Competence, a "good sker" can ski all of the terrain all of the time in any condition.
That would (if they ski it efficiently well) certainly be a good skier without doubt. But why cant there also be good skiers who are very good at only certain types of terrain?
Imo there are many great technical and efficient skiers who live on groomers. They may not ski trees , nor care to ski moguls, nor get to venture much elsewhere. They will however, deal with whatever the conditions of the moment are just dandy. But does not skiing everywhere really mean they would not be considered good? Just an honest question.
 

Philpug

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That would (if they ski it efficiently well) certainly be a good skier without doubt. But why cant there also be good skiers who are very good at only certain types of terrain?
Imo there are many great technical and efficient skiers who live on groomers. They may not ski trees , nor care to ski moguls, nor get to venture much elsewhere. They will however, deal with whatever the conditions of the moment are just dandy. But does not skiing everywhere really mean they would not be considered good? Just an honest question.
That is the difference between "can" ski all terrain/conditions and "does" ski all terrain/condtions. Just because they can ski the terrain/conditions does not mean they have to. It is choice.
 

François Pugh

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That would (if they ski it efficiently well) certainly be a good skier without doubt. But why cant there also be good skiers who are very good at only certain types of terrain?
Imo there are many great technical and efficient skiers who live on groomers. They may not ski trees , nor care to ski moguls, nor get to venture much elsewhere. They will however, deal with whatever the conditions of the moment are just dandy. But does not skiing everywhere really mean they would not be considered good? Just an honest question.
That would make them a good bump/mogul skier, or a good carving skier, or a good powder skier. Good at all makes them a good skier without any qualifications.
I deliberately left racing out of it, maybe because I'm biased? Is it necessary to be able to get on the leader board in FIS events to be a good skier?
 

SSSdave

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So a "Bad" skier is a developing skier that got up earlier than you? Doesn't their lift ticket give them equal access to mountain as long as they are not endangering themselves other skiers?

A lift ticket may give them equal access to resort terrain but then that wasn't the point of my input teasing the structure of the posed question. Skiers can do things that annoy advanced skiers on fresh powder days versus non-fresh days when no one would care as such matters not. Thus another way to look at good from behavior not skill. A considerate snow slider would understand that situation.

A novice venturing into a mogul field where more advanced bump skiers well above are dropping down fall lines might start slipping down a line without bothering to first check above if one of the bump skiers is zipping down who will otherwise overtake them if they don't move out of the way. Again something not good annoying though they have a right to do so policy wise.

A person that decides to stop right in a busy narrow cat track leading to an all mountain destination slope instead of stepping just above the track is not good lacking common sense of a considerate person, that is going to annoy others trying to maintain adequate speed to reach the slope. Of course much more but not a subject we should hijack the thread with. ogsmile
 
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HDSkiing

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Wow 5 pages!

I see “good” skiers every day, and in fact make a “living” (in the winter anyway) telling them that they are good...at least in the context of what they are doing, maybe having a breakthrough moment or mastering a task, even if it’s only on the beginner hill.

I know, I know, everyone wants to put up a definition and that’s ok, it’s a way of seeing how we measure up (or maybe fall short). And within the context of the OP I tend to agree that one has to master the skills of how we make the Ski Tip, Twist, or Bend and that blending those skills to achieve balance on any terrain in any conditions makes us efficient (and good?).

People have a choice, as they should, of what terrain they like to ski. A given skier may no longer enjoy skiing the bumps, but he/she has the requisite skills to do so at a level that even a non skier would recognize as “good” (they are not merely surviving the run) the difference from them and someone who has never or rarely ventures into the bumps is obvious, same with trees, powder, steeps etc.

I watch skiers all day long and the vast majority ski at the intermediate to advanced levels (if you apply say the PSIA definitions) and there is nothing wrong with that, some of them are even quite good (at that level). Maybe they only get out 6 days a year and they have skied at the same level for the last 20 years, but they are (relatively) stable on their favorite blue run and are in a state of joy as evidenced by the smile on their facesogsmile. Who am I to tell them (unless they ask and have signed a waiver) that the way they ski is not going to work on a bump run?

I learned awhile back to watch a persons turns (ski performance) then what their body was doing and then render judgment about what they were doing (or not doing that they should do). But those “judgements” were never about them, a fine line I know. We all have egos and if for a few hours or days a person gets to live out a positive reinforcement of a perception of themselves just because it brings them joy then I say everyone managing to get themselves up the lift and down the hill is good enough, but then maybe I’m just an eternal optimist:hug:.
 
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RuleMiHa

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Wow 5 pages!

I see “good” skiers every day, and in fact make a “living” (in the winter anyway) telling them that they are good...at least in the context of what they are doing, maybe having a breakthrough moment or mastering a task, even if it’s only on the beginner hill.

I know, I know, everyone wants to put up a definition and that’s ok, it’s a way of seeing how we measure up (or maybe fall short). And within the context of the OP I tend to agree that one has to master the skills of how we make the Ski Tip, Twist, or Bend and that blending those skills to achieve balance on any terrain in any conditions makes us efficient (and good?).

People have a choice, as they should, of what terrain they like to ski. A given skier may no longer enjoy skiing the bumps, but he/she has the requisite skills to do so at a level that even a non skier would recognize as “good” (they are not merely surviving the run) the difference from them and someone who has never or rarely ventures into the bumps is obvious, same with trees, powder, steeps etc.

I watch skiers all day long and the vast majority ski at the intermediate to advanced levels (if you apply say the PSIA definitions) and there is nothing wrong with that, some of them are even quite good (at that level). Maybe they only get out 6 days a year and they have skied at the same level for the last 20 years, but they are (relatively) stable on their favorite blue run and are in a state of joy as evidenced by the smile on their facesogsmile. Who am I to tell them (unless they ask and have signed a waiver) that the way they ski is not going to work on a bump run?

I learned awhile back to watch a persons turns (ski performance) then what their body was doing and then render judgment about what they were doing (or not doing that they should do). But those “judgements” were never about them, a fine line I know. We all have egos and if for a few hours or days a person gets to live out a positive reinforcement of a perception of themselves just because it brings them joy then I say everyone managing to get themselves up the lift and down the hill is good enough, but then maybe I’m just an eternal optimist:hug:.

My two cents (FWIW) is to encourage you to find out whether they want to live with a positive reinforcement of a perception of themselves or if they really want to seriously progress their skiing. That really is all some people want, but not all. I've had quite a few disappointing lessons that were fun with lots of positive reinforcement, when what I was actually seeking was true technical improvement. Now lessons I take have video, so I'm clear what's going on and I'm not mislead my an instructors' cheerleading.
 

HDSkiing

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My two cents (FWIW) is to encourage you to find out whether they want to live with a positive reinforcement of a perception of themselves or if they really want to seriously progress their skiing. That really is all some people want, but not all. I've had quite a few disappointing lessons that were fun with lots of positive reinforcement, when what I was actually seeking was true technical improvement. Now lessons I take have video, so I'm clear what's going on and I'm not mislead my an instructors' cheerleading.

True that, All good Instructors will ask what a students goals are, what they want to improve on then make a plan to get there. Video is an enormously helpful tool in doing that, for example many skiers, even at the advanced level don’t realize (or believe an Instructor/coach) how far back they are or that what they believe is a carved turn is really a skidded one, nothing like seeing for yourself, put them in a bump run and you don’t have to know much about MA to see it. (I get videoed a few times a season, it keeps me humble:doh:).

My observation about positive perception was generally about non-lesson taking skiers who are happy and content in their skiing, mostly because they just don’t get out that many days. I do think it’s important to offer positive reinforcement when it’s done in context, I suppose there is a cheer leading component, particularly when dealing with people first starting out. That positive experience helps bring them back (this is a business after all;).

For the person who seriously wants to improve, sure no problem taking their skiing apart, dissecting it and crumpling it up so we can start new, which brings us back to the fundamentals in the OP, to truly ski all terrain in all conditions, generally the definition of a level 9 skier, or some might say “”Good Skier” that skier will have had to master the skills of rotation, edging and pressure (fore/aft and ski to ski) and be able to blend all into dynamic Skiing in which case it’s nearly irrelevant what terrain you are on, blues or a gnarly bumped up double black. They likely did not get to that level in a straight progression, at least not the mortal ones, most likely someone did pick apart their skiing and they may have spent a season or more working on one small thing to improve on. At some point non skiing attributes like athletic ability and physical conditioning will also play a role. I might have said youth as well but I know a few 80 something skiers that can zipper line moguls better than I can.

But for the rest of the skiing public they might only achieve a portion of that skill, be happy and more than competent to navigate their favorite terrain, I say they are good skiers too or maybe it would be more accurate to say they are good “Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced/Expert/Pro/God-like” skiers.

A side observation, women are far more accurate than men when describing about their skill levels, wonder why that is?
 
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Crank

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A good skier is a complete skier. They don't have to ski in the latest style. They have to be competent on all terrain in all conditions. They don't have to charge down the sketchiest runs, but, can pick their way carefully down, remaining balanced and in control.
 

Goose

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A lift ticket may give them equal access to resort terrain but then that wasn't the point of my input teasing the structure of the posed question. Skiers can do things that annoy advanced skiers on fresh powder days versus non-fresh days when no one would care as such matters not. Thus another way to look at good from behavior not skill. A considerate snow slider would understand that situation.

A novice venturing into a mogul field where more advanced bump skiers well above are dropping down fall lines might start slipping down a line without bothering to first check above if one of the bump skiers is zipping down who will otherwise overtake them if they don't move out of the way. Again something not good annoying though they have a right to do so policy wise.

A person that decides to stop right in a busy narrow cat track leading to an all mountain destination slope instead of stepping just above the track is not good lacking common sense of a considerate person, that is going to annoy others trying to maintain adequate speed to reach the slope. Of course much more but not a subject we should hijack the thread with. ogsmile
Im sorry and (I assure you) with due respect That I say this,
but a lot of what you speak of sounds a bit elitist. I understand that there are many times when certain individuals shouldn't really be on whatever runs they are actually on. That stuff goes on a lot. But that aside, there are also plenty people who are advancing and rightfully look to experience different things and different types and levels of skiing. Its not always about lack of good etiquettes but many times its also just an honest ignorance and many times its about honest efforts towards advancing and experiencing different things.

The idea that others ruin things for you by wanting to experience fresh pow is a bit elitist imo.

And honestly while fresh pow is the one thing most skiers dream of most, and yet only get to experience little and maybe even (for a number of skiers) never, Most anyone imo has a right to do so should the situation present itself. Not trying to sound mean here at all but unfortunately not much other way to put it so its probably going to sound mean and I apologize up front, ........but if this is any problem for you, then you probably should have gotten there before the person ahead of you.

On another note....everyone has to begin somewhere somehow on different terrain as they improve and advance. As mentioned before there will always be some percentage in situations they shouldn't be in. But plenty do have a legitimate reason to be there.

On yet another note not to you specifically but to anyone in general. Why are powder and bumps considered the end all be all as for what good skier is. Just because powder is the dream doesn't at all make those who get to experience it any better a skier than others.

And as for bumps? Honestly I don't care at all for zip line bump skiing. I never viewed that as great skiing and in fact never really viewed that as skiing imo. What I view as skiing bumps good is one gracefully and confidently and efficiently weaving there way through. But just me and my view.
 

SSSdave

life is short precious ...don't waste it
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For all you that keep trying to define "Good" skiers consider the following at the link:

MARTY GRABIJAS >>>Good” skiers share two common traits: efficiency of movement and the ability to leverage options.

Options: There are three ways that we can impact our skis: We can rotate our femurs in our hip socket and turn the skis; we can rotate our skis along their length to put the edges at a more acute angle to the snow; and we can vary the amount of pressure between the left and right ski, and fore and aft along each ski.

Most skiers do one of those three things really well. The skier who does all three things well is the skier who skis effortlessly regardless of terrain or snow conditions. Bumps, groomers, steeps, powder, crud… each requires a blending of rotation, edging and pressure control. The skier who has mastered each of those skills will have the greatest degree of tactical options available to them. They will be able to match tactic to terrain and be the skier who flows down the mountain.


First point will be that his Options are instructor biomechanics terminology that will not be understandable except to those familiar with those subjects like an instructor audience (probably what the artiicle was for) leaving the majority of the rest of we skiers out of the target audience. So instead members are commenting on their interpretation of an advanced enough skill level that equates to the far too vague term "good".

Second, apparently if one cannot ski all terrain well, they are not a "good" skier. Although the link author made mostly good points, that was an overly broad conclusion. Instead it should have been more narrowly described as a skier able to ski all (skiable) conditions and terrain well and leave out the vague term good, my logic and philosophy prof regularly had a field day with beating up students using "good".

Consider there are many very talented decades experienced skiers that don't ski all conditions especially more difficult conditions but ski the slopes they choose to ski very well indeed. Slopes they enjoy as many of us have little interest in challenging terrain. Put some of them on a steep bump run with large bumps or on a steep icy world cup level downhill course either of which they are not familiar with and they will probably not ski "effortlessly". And if they are provided with the correct skis that won't help much if they are not familiar with the nature of such specialized skis. Consider the talented New England skier that goes out west for the the first time to ski deep powder. Are they going to ski "effortlessly" from the get go? Of course not. By the end of their ski week maybe but at first they will need to go through some personal trial and error of what works and what does not work learning. In other words I don't think we ought label skiers as NOT good simply because they either have no or little experience in all conditions or specialized skis. That threshold for "good" is the issue.

Third there are conditions I doubt any skiers are going to look "effortless" going down especially surfaces that are really steep and icy or that have frozen chickenheads or frozen sastruggi or really heavy deep cement powder. Thus a more reasonable way to describe it would be "who skis effortlessly on all skiable terrain or snow conditions. In other words one should admit at the extreme there are conditions and slopes even the best skiers will not look effortless on.

In any case if the subject is changed to "skiers able to ski all skiable terrain and conditions well" then the rest of the author's piece has value.

David
 

slowrider

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20171202_202145.png
 

François Pugh

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For all you that keep trying to define "Good" skiers consider the following at the link:

MARTY GRABIJAS >>>Good” skiers share two common traits: efficiency of movement and the ability to leverage options.

Options: There are three ways that we can impact our skis: We can rotate our femurs in our hip socket and turn the skis; we can rotate our skis along their length to put the edges at a more acute angle to the snow; and we can vary the amount of pressure between the left and right ski, and fore and aft along each ski.

Most skiers do one of those three things really well. The skier who does all three things well is the skier who skis effortlessly regardless of terrain or snow conditions. Bumps, groomers, steeps, powder, crud… each requires a blending of rotation, edging and pressure control. The skier who has mastered each of those skills will have the greatest degree of tactical options available to them. They will be able to match tactic to terrain and be the skier who flows down the mountain.


First point will be that his Options are instructor biomechanics terminology that will not be understandable except to those familiar with those subjects like an instructor audience (probably what the artiicle was for) leaving the majority of the rest of we skiers out of the target audience. So instead members are commenting on their interpretation of an advanced enough skill level that equates to the far too vague term "good".

Second, apparently if one cannot ski all terrain well, they are not a "good" skier. Although the link author made mostly good points, that was an overly broad conclusion. Instead it should have been more narrowly described as a skier able to ski all (skiable) conditions and terrain well and leave out the vague term good, my logic and philosophy prof regularly had a field day with beating up students using "good".

Consider there are many very talented decades experienced skiers that don't ski all conditions especially more difficult conditions but ski the slopes they choose to ski very well indeed. Slopes they enjoy as many of us have little interest in challenging terrain. Put some of them on a steep bump run with large bumps or on a steep icy world cup level downhill course either of which they are not familiar with and they will probably not ski "effortlessly". And if they are provided with the correct skis that won't help much if they are not familiar with the nature of such specialized skis. Consider the talented New England skier that goes out west for the the first time to ski deep powder. Are they going to ski "effortlessly" from the get go? Of course not. By the end of their ski week maybe but at first they will need to go through some personal trial and error of what works and what does not work learning. In other words I don't think we ought label skiers as NOT good simply because they either have no or little experience in all conditions or specialized skis. That threshold for "good" is the issue.

Third there are conditions I doubt any skiers are going to look "effortless" going down especially surfaces that are really steep and icy or that have frozen chickenheads or frozen sastruggi or really heavy deep cement powder. Thus a more reasonable way to describe it would be "who skis effortlessly on all skiable terrain or snow conditions. In other words one should admit at the extreme there are conditions and slopes even the best skiers will not look effortless on.

In any case if the subject is changed to "skiers able to ski all skiable terrain and conditions well" then the rest of the author's piece has value.

David
Replacing good with well does little for me, just say'n.
By the way, I think I am a better skier now that I can (imho) ski all conditions and all terrain well, than I was when I couldn't ski bumps well.
 

Crank

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Not addressing the whole subject of a good skier that reads more like a much too broadly posed skills question but more narrowly for what I care about,

A "good" skier is a skier on a fresh powder day just after the first chairs loaded ahead of me on the lift, that skis whatever fall line (s)he gets to rightly chooses. And as to their style, whatever makes them happy is good.

A "bad" skier is one that immediately traverses across a wide fall line on a fresh powder slope where I and others would otherwise have enjoyed a pristine peak experience.

I agree to an extent. Being a good skier involves knowledge of etiquette and awareness of all round you. Traversing or Zorrowing a powderfield is sin many of us would find hard to forgive. Doing that does not make someone a bad skier, definitely not good though, and most likely unaware of the horror we feel at their actions.

However, I don't think a good skier is going to be annoyed by someone flailing around lower down in their chosen line, but would just ski around that flailer or wait for them to clear. Being a good skier involves having a good attitude and being a good citizen.

I don't think a good skier has to be particularly humble about their abilities, after all they worked long and hard to get there. However a good skier is aware and is humble and shows respect in respect to the mountains where he hones his skills and practices his art and passion in.
 

CalG

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The "good" skier is the one I would aspire to emulate.

The others, regardless of proficiency, are no good to me.
I know many of the latter. I also know many of the former as well.
 

Tricia

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It's a lot easier to be slow and smooth than fast and smooth.
It's a lot easier to be slow and controlled than fast and controlled.
Everything ramps up at higher speeds.
Being fast may hide mistakes by making them harder for an observer to see, but they'll surely be more and worse.
I was skiing with Marcel at Northstar, who happens to be a high level instructor, we were working on slowing down to magnify what speed covers up.
It was amazing how much I learned about my skiing by slowing it down.
 

fatbob

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Definition of "good" skier

I am a good skier
You are OK I guess
He, she, it are gorbs

;)

Just kiddin. IMV it really doesn't matter. Take a post powder day and the Steelers jacketed Joey ploughing into piles of crud, wrecking, laughing and picking himself up and going again. He's a good skier compared to the po faced expert headed back to the car bitching that it's all tracked out.
 

Tricia

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@martyg I think the point you're getting at is something that Stu Campbell said to me the first time I met him.

"If you want to ski late into your years, you must learn to ski efficiently"

The bigger question is this, when someone skis and smiles, and has fun doing what they do, but its not efficient, how many years of skiing does he/she have until the sport beats up his/her body and it no longer seems fun?
 

François Pugh

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@martyg I think the point you're getting at is something that Stu Campbell said to me the first time I met him.

"If you want to ski late into your years, you must learn to ski efficiently"

The bigger question is this, when someone skis and smiles, and has fun doing what they do, but its not efficient, how many years of skiing does he/she have until the sport beats up his/her body and it no longer seems fun?
Anecdotal evidence only, but in my case the NEED to replace brute strength and quick reflexes in bumps with better technique happened at around 45 years of age. Even though I wasn't crashing, I reached a point where I decided the pounding I was giving my body careening off the bumps at speed was something I no longer wanted.
 

slowrider

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Good point Tricia. What about a riders mental state over decades of skiing? When is enough going up & down begin to sour even someone that has reach expert status. Do Pow snobs or Carve aficionados restrict their overall skills by not skiing other conditions.
 

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