CSIA calls it grip.
Do we?
CSIA calls it grip.
Who knows what most PSIA folk teach. There’s lots of beliefs, and we do not believe in final forms. But if you were in PSIA Rocky Mountain, you would be very unlikely to hear one of our examiners ever talk about adding pressure to the skis. Our Ed staff believes that you rarely, if ever, push the skis. We look to manipulate pressure, not create it. We look to alter the timing of pressure, moving it higher in the turn by moving with the skis, establish early edge, and reducing the pressure that otherwise would occur later in the turn.Personally I’m rarely if ever coaching or teaching “pressure”.
About the only thing you hear in junior race coaching is an emphasis on “pressure at the top of the turn”. That magical stage of late transition/early turning where the skier benefits from actively moving to the new ski.
That said, I like to coach movements not outcomes. The movements that contribute to the “perfect” turn are, as Razie described in an earlier post, that combination of ankle flexion (eversion included) hips, upper body, and muscular engagement that most efficiently engages a ski at the “right” time.
And the “right” time is almost always in the fall line.
When the critical elements are in place, “pressure” becomes a result of the above.
Teaching “pressure” as a movement, IMO, produces compromised outcomes. Yes, the passive skier can become more aggressive , and appear to make improvements. But the skier who works to improve all of the pieces, will be ahead in the long run.
Coach a young developing racer to add more “pressure” to the ski in the turn, and you will likely get more rotation and more skidding. Yes, while free skiing, the modern shaped ski will “reward” the skier with positive feelings of engagement and rebound, but in the course they will almost always be slower with a higher DNF percentage.
I’m always impressed watching the slo-mo of a top World Cup slalom skier in the course. Total reliance on stance and establishing high edge angles before engaging. Very little skidding, and efficient use of the muscles.
Who knows what most PSIA folk teach. There’s lots of beliefs, and we do not believe in final forms. But if you were in PSIA Rocky Mountain, you would be very unlikely to hear one of our examiners ever talk about adding pressure to the skis. Our Ed staff believes that you rarely, if ever, push the skis. We look to manipulate pressure, not create it. We look to alter the timing of pressure, moving it higher in the turn by moving with the skis, establish early edge, and reducing the pressure that otherwise would occur later in the turn.
Sure, but gravity is a relatively weak force compared to the centripetal force with medium radius turn and relatively slow velocity:"Just to be clear, Tom does not talk about centrifugal force, he talks about gravity and centripetal force, and makes the point that gravity is a minor part of the equation -- the force to be managed and used is centripetal force."
Actually it is the resultant vector of the two accellerations that has to be managed.
At low speeds it is all gravity and at high speeds the vector becomes dominated by centripetal accelleration.
F = M x A ......
It's because most people have a very poor grasp of physics, and a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.In this and other recent threads, I have seen lots of "talk" on managing pressure. Yet, I can't recall the term Centripetal Force being discussed/explained. Why is that?
Just to be clear, Tom does not talk about centrifugal force, he talks about gravity and centripetal force, and makes the point that gravity is a minor part of the equation -- the force to be managed and used is centripetal force.
Mike
Actually it is the resultant vector of the two accellerations that has to be managed.
At low speeds it is all gravity and at high speeds the vector becomes dominated by centripetal accelleration.
F = M x A ......
Sure, but gravity is a relatively weak force compared to the centripetal force with medium radius turn and relatively slow velocity:
Fc = m v2 / r
Just imagine the double blacks the average intermediate could “ski”!Thinking about if you could ski on the moon at 1/6 G....?
Thinking about if you could ski on the moon at 1/6 G....?
Do we?
Thinking about if you could ski on the moon at 1/6 G....?
What kind of answer is that Mike?
Gravity for balance is where the skier begins their learning journey and therefore uses movement patterns relative to that force opening up the door for a life of pushing the ski. Why blow it off as insignificant or is it that in you world, you only deal with advanced tactics?
And just to be clear, I don't teach physics to my students but I would think that an instructor should have basic knowledge on how the thing they are trying to teach works.
I think that foot tipping, or ankle eversion/inversion, is a critical part of the equation that is commonly missing.Some even describe this as "a combination of inclination and angulation" as if we put the skis on edge with the hips and compensate with the shoulders..
So - what is edging? Any combination of foot tipping, inclination of COM and angulation that allows you to create edge angles.
I am a ski instructor, not a race coach. I can do a beginner's version of a stivot, and a not so bad pivot slip. I've got a question.....
Inclination and angulation, alone or combined, don’t engage the edge without it.
....
High level racers in a steep, tightly set GS course will sometimes “stivot”, a redirect of their mass/skis into their preferred line before engaging their edges. In slo-mo video we can see quite a bit of inclination and angulation developing as the stivot progresses, well before the ankles and edges are engaged.
A few years back (before I started doing CSIA courses) they used a skills focused approach with 5 key skills:
Foundation Skills:
Steering Skills:
- Stance and balance
- Timing and co-ordination
These days it's more of a functional focus with the 4 Tech References. These don't include the word "edging" but they do include the word "grip".
- Pivoting
- Edging
- Pressure control
Whilst I'm sure there's plenty of CSIA instructors who would be familiar with either the skills or Tech Ref approach you don't have to go too far to find instructors (typically those who have been around a while) unfamiliar with Tech Refs and others (typically slightly newer ones) unfamiliar with the skills based approach. And unless a individual is well versed in CSIA speak it would probably be difficult to know which approach was being used in a lesson.
The CSIA also have a booklet entitled "Science and Skiing" which covers the basics of skiing physics and uses terms like BoS, COM, forces, gravity, GRF, edge angle, angulation, grip, yada yada. It doesn't mention platform angle which is a concept I found extremely useful in helping understand how angulation leads to grip.
That would be like a video editor watching at a movie, too distracted by all the mistakes to appreciate the story.One day, his topic was the physics of skiing. He was about 5 or 10 minutes into his lecture when it became apparent to him that there was a loss of connection with his audience. He asked if everyone was following along and if there were any questions or comments. The reply? "We are physicists from Los Alamos..."