What is “Edging”?

[karlo]

In race coaching, “edging” isn’t something we work on, and I’ve never taken a PSIA clinic.

I have. I’ve never heard the term “edging” either.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

BERP Balance, Edging, Rotary, Pressure? That's what PSIA had before the "5 fundamentals".

 

[LiquidFeet]

One day I got an unexpected comment from another instructor that knows me pretty well. He said "You ski with your edges; I don't."

I've thought about that statement long and hard. It's a conceptual way of splitting skiers into two groups. Maybe there are people who think this way beyond this friend of mine? Is this a common thing to think?

 

[Average Joe]

BERP Balance, Edging, Rotary, Pressure? That's what PSIA had before the "5 fundamentals".

Does that mean that they consider “Edging” separate from “Pressure”?
Edit- or if it’s out of date, and not taught anymore, is “Edging” an old reference that is still in use?

 

[Mike King]

I have. I’ve never heard the term “edging” either.

Really? Edge angle is not something you work on? I've heard race coaches say that those who can develop the greatest edge angle are more likely to win. Why? Gives you more options...

 

[Wilhelmson]

Edging is a landscaping job that noone wants to do. Beginning with the feet, one uses their mass to pressure and tip a sharp metal edge to cut the substrate below creating a clean line or arc.

Does edging in skiing involve leverage as it does in soil?

 

[Uke]

LF,

Could you explain what your fellow instructor meant? His saying he doesn't ski with his edges makes no sense to me.

uke

 

[Dakine]

Just don't type "Edging" into a search engine with safe search off.....

 

[LiquidFeet]

LF,
Could you explain what your fellow instructor meant? His saying he doesn't ski with his edges makes no sense to me.
uke

His statement surprised me too. That's why I have thought about it so much.

I think it means he stands tall and keeps his skis mostly flat, and actively rotates them to control his turn shape. Perhaps he considers the rotation to be the motor controlling his turn radius. It must also mean that he does not consciously work to manipulate his edge angles in order to control his radius, otherwise he would not have said what he said. I'm guessing at all this. Whatever edge angles he gets must contribute to his turns, whether he's aware of it or not.

He doesn't go to the mountain's training sessions. So I'm not that acquainted with his skiing as I don't get to watch him ski. I guess he's watched me ski at some point.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Does that mean that they consider “Edging” separate from “Pressure”?
Edit- or if it’s out of date, and not taught anymore, is “Edging” an old reference that is still in use?

I think it does mean PSIA separates Edging from Pressure. Here's the list of PSIA's Five Fundamentals. As members of PSIA we are supposed to have memorized each of these five. And of course, we are supposed to teach them. Edge angles are covered in #3, pressure in # 1, 2, and 5. Note that the first two mentions of pressure address where the pressure is, and the last addresses how much pressure.

Prior to this list of 5 full sentences, PSIA had a list of four words, Balance, Edging, Rotation, and Pressure (BERP). With BERP they still separated edging from pressure more directly. They expanded BERP's 4 elements into the 5 Fundamentals because they separated fore-aft from lateral balance. They also wanted to indicate that pressure is managed, not created, so as to keep instructors from thinking of pressure as a verb.

BERP and after it the Five Fundamentals are accompanied by DIRT. That refers to Duration, Intensity, Rate, and Timing. Don't you just love acronyms?

@Average Joe, in your coaching do you always combine edging and pressure as cause and effect, and refer more to pressure (effect) instead of edge angles (cause) when you talk with your students? Do you use "pressure" as a verb, as in, "Pressure the skis"?

1. Control the relationship of the Center of Mass to the base of support to direct pressure along the length of the skis

2. Control pressure from ski to ski and direct pressure toward the outside ski

3. Control edge angles through a combination of inclination and angulation

4. Control the skis' rotation (turning, pivoting, steering) with leg rotation, separate from the upper body

5. Regulate the magnitude of pressure created through ski/snow interaction

 

[Average Joe]

I think it does. Here's the list of PSIA's Five Fundamentals. As members of PSIA we are supposed to have memorized each of these five. And of course, we are supposed to teach them. Edge angles are covered in #3, pressure in # 1, 2, and 5. Note that the first two mentions of pressure address where the pressure is, and the last addresses how much pressure.

Prior to this list of 5 full sentences, PSIA had a list of four words, Balance, Edging, Rotation, and Pressure (BERP). With BERP they still separated edging from pressure more directly. They expanded BERP's 4 elements into the 5 Fundamentals because they separated fore-aft from lateral balance. They also wanted to indicate that pressure is managed, not created, so as to keep instructors from thinking of pressure as a verb.

BERP and after it the Five Fundamentals are accompanied by DIRT. That refers to Duration, Intensity, Rate, and Timing. Don't you just love acronyms?

@Average Joe, in your coaching do you always combine edging and pressure as cause and effect, and refer more to pressure (effect) instead of edge angles (cause) when you talk with your students? Do you use "pressure" as a verb, as in, "Pressure the skis"?

1. Control the relationship of the Center of Mass to the base of support to direct pressure along the length of the skis

2. Control pressure from ski to ski and direct pressure toward the outside ski

3. Control edge angles through a combination of inclination and angulation

4. Control the skis' rotation (turning, pivoting, steering) with leg rotation, separate from the upper body

5. Regulate the magnitude of pressure created through ski/snow interaction

I personally coach young racers , and I favor skills that help develop edge angles over pressure. I think generally the average skier puts too much pressure on a too- flat ski early in the turn, and a rotational initiation leads to an over pressured skidded turn.
In racing, that’s costly.
When we work with them on angles, their downhill ski balance improves as well. Improved balance helps develop better upper and lower separation (or angulation).
Bear in mind we work with the same group over the course of a winter, about 35 days on snow. Often we are gate training, or at races, but I emphasize the same fundamentals throughout the season so they have a focus while they are free skiing.

I like to think of pressure as something that develops as a result of edge angles and weight placement, not something that is forced.

 

[Mike King]

I think it does. Here's the list of PSIA's Five Fundamentals. As members of PSIA we are supposed to have memorized each of these five. And of course, we are supposed to teach them. Edge angles are covered in #3, pressure in # 1, 2, and 5. Note that the first two mentions of pressure address where the pressure is, and the last addresses how much pressure.

Prior to this list of 5 full sentences, PSIA had a list of four words, Balance, Edging, Rotation, and Pressure (BERP). With BERP they still separated edging from pressure more directly. They expanded BERP's 4 elements into the 5 Fundamentals because they separated fore-aft from lateral balance. They also wanted to indicate that pressure is managed, not created, so as to keep instructors from thinking of pressure as a verb.

BERP and after it the Five Fundamentals are accompanied by DIRT. That refers to Duration, Intensity, Rate, and Timing. Don't you just love acronyms?

@Average Joe, in your coaching do you always combine edging and pressure as cause and effect, and refer more to pressure (effect) instead of edge angles (cause) when you talk with your students? Do you use "pressure" as a verb, as in, "Pressure the skis"?

1. Control the relationship of the Center of Mass to the base of support to direct pressure along the length of the skis

2. Control pressure from ski to ski and direct pressure toward the outside ski

3. Control edge angles through a combination of inclination and angulation

4. Control the skis' rotation (turning, pivoting, steering) with leg rotation, separate from the upper body

5. Regulate the magnitude of pressure created through ski/snow interaction

@LiquidFeet we still have the 3 skills: rotary, edging and pressure. We now also have the 5 fundamentals.

Perhaps things are different in Eastern. We aren't expected to teach the five fundamentals in Rocky Mountain. In fact, if you want to do something completely different, you are free to do so. Of course, if you want to pass a certification exam, you might want to memorize the 5 fundamentals. As well as be well acquainted with the 3 skills, since the MA portion of the exam will have to address one or two of the skills (depending on level).

Maybe you should join RM?

Mike

 

[Jjmd]

In instructing better skiers and racers I like to train them to use the concept of edging to “build the turn”, which results in more pressure being produced in a linear fashion from the kinematic sequence. This is basically what Average Joe said in the last post, (making his comments way above average in my opinion). These are controled, longer radius turns at first ,to give the skier more time to assimilate the build up of pressure, and allow time to test more extreme edge angles, and what effect that has on pressure. Once the concept has been grasped ,the volume can be turned up and incorporated in a faster build up for different situations. Very inelegantly stated but hopefully the point is in there somewhere.

 

[Mike King]

I personally coach young racers , and I favor skills that help develop edge angles over pressure. I think generally the average skier puts too much pressure on a too- flat ski early in the turn, and a rotational initiation leads to an over pressured skidded turn.

Not only the average skier, but the average ski instructor as well. If you look at the five fundamentals that @LiquidFeet posted above, note the important word: "Control." Most of the ski public, and probably a majority of ski instructors as well, push the skis to an edge -- presumably this is your over pressured ski. Rather than controlling the pressure that builds in the turn, they create it by pushing the skis rather than edging them. And because they haven't developed the skills to control fore/aft pressure, they wind up skiing from the tail of the ski, where their only option to turn the ski is to push it to an edge.

When we work with them on angles, their downhill ski balance improves as well. Improved balance helps develop better upper and lower separation (or angulation).
Bear in mind we work with the same group over the course of a winter, about 35 days on snow. Often we are gate training, or at races, but I emphasize the same fundamentals throughout the season so they have a focus while they are free skiing.

I like to think of pressure as something that develops as a result of edge angles and weight placement, not something that is forced.

Exactly. Pressure is something to be controlled and managed. It is offensive, not defensive. If I want my skis to turn inside the radius of the turn that the sidecut would allow, I move the pressure forward on the ski in the initiation of the turn. I would then move pressure to the center of the ski to get maximum deflection at the apex, and move the pressure aft to get the tail to grip in the finish.

Learning to turn the skis with edge and pressure is something that is required to get maximum ski performance from modern shaped skis.

Mike

 

[Dakine]

And then there is the school of thought that much of what is important in modern skiing happens inside the boots where you cannot see it and everything else follows that.
Ankleation...and interesting concept.

 

[karlo]

Really? Edge angle is not something you work on? I've heard race coaches say that those who can develop the greatest edge angle are more likely to win. Why? Gives you more options...

Edge angle, yes. “Edging”, no. Tipping, yes

 

[Mike King]

Edge angle, yes. “Edging”, no. Tipping, yes

That's creating a semantic difference without distinction.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Average Joe, in your coaching do you refer more to pressure as you teach, instead of edge angles?
Do you see these as cause (edge angles) and effect (pressure)?
Do you use "pressure" as a verb in your coaching?
Is high pressure at the fall line a goal? If yes, how do you explain to your students why it's a goal?

 

[Average Joe]

@Average Joe, in your coaching do you refer more to pressure as you teach, instead of edge angles?
Do you see these as cause (edge angles) and effect (pressure)?
Do you use "pressure" as a verb in your coaching?
Is high pressure at the fall line a goal? If yes, how do you explain to your students why it's a goal?

Personally I’m rarely if ever coaching or teaching “pressure”.
About the only thing you hear in junior race coaching is an emphasis on “pressure at the top of the turn”. That magical stage of late transition/early turning where the skier benefits from actively moving to the new ski.

That said, I like to coach movements not outcomes. The movements that contribute to the “perfect” turn are, as Razie described in an earlier post, that combination of ankle flexion (eversion included) hips, upper body, and muscular engagement that most efficiently engages a ski at the “right” time.
And the “right” time is almost always in the fall line.

When the critical elements are in place, “pressure” becomes a result of the above.

Teaching “pressure” as a movement, IMO, produces compromised outcomes. Yes, the passive skier can become more aggressive , and appear to make improvements. But the skier who works to improve all of the pieces, will be ahead in the long run.
Coach a young developing racer to add more “pressure” to the ski in the turn, and you will likely get more rotation and more skidding. Yes, while free skiing, the modern shaped ski will “reward” the skier with positive feelings of engagement and rebound, but in the course they will almost always be slower with a higher DNF percentage.

I’m always impressed watching the slo-mo of a top World Cup slalom skier in the course. Total reliance on stance and establishing high edge angles before engaging. Very little skidding, and efficient use of the muscles.

 

[karlo]

That's creating a semantic difference without distinction.

Oh. In that case... if edging and tipping are the same,

With the 14, 15, 16 year old racers I don’t use the word tipping. I prefer to describe it as “rolling them up on edge”. More of a dynamic description. In addition, “tipping” sounds too much like tipping over, and we’re always working to keep from falling inside.
Curious as to how the Canadian ski school model differs from PSIA as the thread progresses.

I can also work with "rolling them up on edge"

My memory is so poor and I've only taken a two clinics, offered at my mountain, for Level 3 prep this past foreshortened season. What I recall was we worked on were

- Skiing on one ski. No mention of tipping. Somehow, the clinician didn't like my one ski skiing and asked someone else to do it. I never learned what he didn't like about my one-ski skiing

- Pain-in-S turns. lot of tipping there. But, no discussion about it. it was a 'go do it' and try to do better. Took me a while to figure it out. Tipping was certainly a big factor. But, to get it right, along with control of speed and forces, I really had to focus on the subtle changes in the fall line. I think discussion of tipping and when to do it would have been good here.

- Skiing in a tunnel. Basically flex to release, in order to keep the head from moving up and down. Again, it was 'go do it'. Would have been good to talk about what flex to release does for tipping.

- Finally, medium turns using flex to release, down a nice black run. That was fun. But, again, no discussion about tipping. Without flex to release, at that speed, I don't think there would have been any way to tip onto a high enough edge to stay in a medium turn. Without it, I would have had to dump a lot of speed or would have gone outside the two cat-tracks. The clinician did remark at the edge angles I got, but didn't relate that to the flex-to-release he asked for. I think a discussion about that would have been worthwhile. @LiquidFeet, after those turns, the clinician also said no wonder I got my Level 2. My reply was, no, I got it because I figured out what a wedge christie is. And, I couldn't have done that without you and others at Pugski.

It's sad. It is not clear at all that there will be clinics, much less ski school next season. I learned that Mt. Bachelor, though re-opened, is not operating its ski school. I certainly would like to do more clinics.