What everybody needs

[Uke]

A question for experienced instructors.

Is there one thing that you teach to almost all your students? Something that is very basic to effective skiing but for one reason or another is not displayed by the recreational skiers that come to us for lessons. A missing ingredient that causes skiers of all levels to have a 'WOW' moment.

I'll hold off on posting my 'WOW' move to see if there is any interest in the subject and to see what others may have.

uke

 

[LiquidFeet]

Great question.

My private lessons are 1 hour long, and the group lessons are 1.5 hours long. Most of the people I teach are adult intermediates skiing on hard snow groomers. I'll respond to the part of your question that asks about students saying Wow!

I've gotten the most "Wows" from skiers when I ask them to pull the new inside foot back as part of initiation.
This movement enhances initiation while helping to eliminate some habitual dysfunctional movements.
It also focuses attention at initiation on the new inside ski.
But I don't always teach it. Everything is conditional on how things go.

They say "Wow!" because the impact is immediate and stunning. The turn starts more strongly.

 

[Skisailor]

First a discslaimer - I try really hard to approach every lesson with an open mind so that I can truly evaluate where a student is in light of their expressed goals for the lesson.

But my actual observations ??? Almost every recreational skier I have taught, especially at Level 3 or above, has weak rotational skills relative to their edging and pressure control skills. In other words - they are very comfortable with shifting their weight and edging their skis, but not so much with turning their legs.

When we discuss lesson goals, so many of my students tell me:
- I struggle with speed control
- I’m ok on green/blue/black runs but I start to fall apart when it gets steeper
- I don’t like narrow trails
- I’ve always wanted to ski bumps but can’t
- I’ve always wanted to ski trees but can’t
etc. etc.

And it almost always has to do with underdeveloped rotational skills. Adding rotation helps with all of the above problems.

So we work on either adding or refining their ability to blend leg rotation into their turns. The approach is different depending upon the initial skill level. But the “wow” happens because all of the sudden, so much more terrain is open to them!

The struggle for me as an instructor is to make sure I stay truly open and don’t get stuck in a groove of thinking I know what I’m probably going to be teaching before the lesson even begins. . . .

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Stance. Most people who come to lessons do not know how to stand in their boots. Most have their weight behind their heels and have never skied in a centered stance. Facilitating how to start in a balanced position allows acesss to the edging, rotation and pressure management.

 

[Skisailor]

Stance. Most people who come to lessons do not know how to stand in their boots. Most have their weight behind their heels and have never skied in a centered stance. Facilitating how to start in a balanced position allows acesss to the edging, rotation and pressure management.

So true. And really, in order to add the rotation I discussed above, you have to first get them “forward”. We almost always have to start there.

 

[Steve]

Separation, but as said this means leg rotation.

However I start often with “ look where you are going to be going. “. I realize that head turning and leg rotation are very different but it starts a progression towards separation and ultimately legs turning, pelvis not.

I do get wows from this.

 

[T-Square]

Agree, stance. Attempt to have shins against the tongue of the boot at all times. I’d rather have a student learn to pressure the front of the ski first. It is much easier to teach backing off forward pressure than to teach a student with built in back seat habits to move their COG towards the tip of their skis.

 

[jimtransition]

Thing I teach the most is probably a lower, more centred stance, upper body discipline is a huge one as well. It's very rare to see someone who doesn't ski better doing a double pole drag drill.

 

[4ster]

Angulation!
Most recreational skiers are back & inside, tend to turn their skis with hips & shoulders instead of initializing movements with their feet & legs. Once stance issues & these misguided movements are addressed & corrected we can begin to develop independence between upper & lower body along with the ability to freely allow femoral rotation which is the essence of proper hip angulation.

Once we reach this stage, like @jimtransition above, my biggest “WOWS” happen with the outside pole drag. At least that is where I have seen the most tangible results. Most skiers tend to get “low” by dropping their hips back instead of allowing them to move progressively inside. The “WOW” happens when they feel the CoM taking a more direct line than the path of the skis.
Other positives that emerge are more consistent speed, turn shapes, & control in a wide variety of conditions.

 

[Bad Bob]

Not taught for years now but this was an OMG moment producer for many students and many instructors was to ask them," can see your skis?". Getting a skier to stop looking at their skis and feet is the easiest way to start moving their weight forward I ever found.

 

[razie]

1) bend ze knees and separation.

in fact they are related, as my notion of separation is a more complex one - derived from my experience with dirt bike racing, street racing and mountain bike riding etc - separating the upper body from the skis (or bike), and in the different planes you get different movements: vertical (flexing, bend ze knees), lateral (counterbalancing creates angulation), rotational (counteracting creates counter).

2) after that, it would be tipping, i.e. clean edging, i.e. the opposite of heel pushing and hip dumping. In my experience, most push their heels out too much and/or lead with the hips... but the prerequisite is not hopping off of the ski, so... see 1)

 

[4ster]

Angulation!
Most recreational skiers are back & inside, tend to turn their skis with hips & shoulders instead of initializing movements with their feet & legs. Once stance issues & these misguided movements are addressed & corrected we can begin to develop independence between upper & lower body along with the ability to freely allow femoral rotation which is the essence of proper hip angulation.
View attachment 75904
Once we reach this stage, like @jimtransition above, my biggest “WOWS” happen with the outside pole drag. At least that is where I have seen the most tangible results. Most skiers tend to get “low” by dropping their hips back instead of allowing them to move progressively inside. The “WOW” happens when they feel the CoM taking a more direct line than the path of the skis.
Other positives that emerge are more consistent speed, turn shapes, & control in a wide variety of conditions.

I would like to add to my post above that leveling the shoulders (part of the reason for pole drag drills) is only the capper to be added once a few other necessities are achieved.

Parallel legs: Feet, shins, knees & thighs remain approximately the same distance apart.

Equal edge angles: Right & left skis are tipped the same amount whether angles are decreasing or increasing.

Matching sidecuts: My own description for reducing excessive tip lead. A.K.A. holding the inside foot back.

Level shoulders: In theory parallel to the slope of the hill.

& yes, flex, flex, flex!

 

[Tony S]

... a sturdy pair of shoes
... a couple of good friends
... honest work
... a comfortable bed
... little road and a stone to roll

But seriously, great thread. Keep it coming.

 

[geepers]

Level shoulders: In theory parallel to the slope of the hill.
View attachment 75979
& yes, flex, flex, flex!

Am I missing something?

Top image looks like fine skiing yet shoulders seem far off parallel to the slops. Second image looks impossible (ignore the 4 arms).

 

[Tricia]

Stance. Most people who come to lessons do not know how to stand in their boots. Most have their weight behind their heels and have never skied in a centered stance. Facilitating how to start in a balanced position allows acesss to the edging, rotation and pressure management.

True story:
Phil and I took our neighbor skiing for the first time. We told her that she would love the sport but only if she invested in boots first. We got her set up in an affordable pair of boots and took her to an instructor. The first thing he noticed was that she was standing in her boots properly.

 

[dbostedo]

True story:
Phil and I took our neighbor skiing for the first time. We told her that she would love the sport but only if she invested in boots first. We got her set up in an affordable pair of boots and took her to an instructor. The first thing he noticed was that she was standing in her boots properly.

Is that neighbor still skiing? (I mean, in general, not like, right now.)

 

[Philpug]

We were were running the Epicski Academy

Is that neighbor still skiing? (I mean, in general, not like, right now.)

Sadly, no. She is an accountant and that season overlaps ski season. Plus she has a two year old and another on the way.

 

[4ster]

Am I missing something?

Top image looks like fine skiing yet shoulders seem far off parallel to the slops. Second image looks impossible (ignore the 4 arms).

Lol!
I don’t know if you’re missing something but maybe I am? I don’t think the second photo is impossible but more an over exaggeration that I might use as a demo without the excessive head tilt.
Anyway, perhaps I should have said level to the horizon or just level.

Better?

 

[geepers]

Lol!
I don’t know if you’re missing something but maybe I am? I don’t think the second photo is impossible but more an over exaggeration that I might use as a demo without the excessive head tilt.
Anyway, perhaps I should have said level to the horizon or just level.

Better?
View attachment 76055

Topic is about recreational skiers and dragging poles drills, especially the outside one, sure helped me.

However as performance picks up maybe we can take 'level shoulders' too literally. This article from Paul Lorenz makes very good sense to me.
Extracts from article:

The point here is that the amount of angulation needed is very small if the skier has inclined the appropriate amount relative to their speed and the pitch of the hill. The spine is not vertical, it is still inclined. Anymore angle than this and the skier would be over angulated creating as many, and potentially more sever problems than being too inclined.

The position in “Diagram 3” is very common among high level skiers and particularly candidates around level 3/4. This “over-angulation” is just as unbalanced and possibly more dangerous than if the skier were to incline or completely bank into the turn as in the first diagram. The ski is over edged and the centripetal force has to go somewhere as it is not opposed or balanced. This usually results in over straining of the leg muscles to deal with the pressure and failing that, the skis jetting out in front of the skier. Over angulation often feels like there is too much pressure or increased “g-force” through the turn. It can feel like leg muscles are struggling and your whole body is getting smaller. This struggle is not only uncomfortable, it also prevents the skier from moving further inside further and increase in edge angle and centripetal pressure. At slow speeds this position can be dealt with through muscular effort. The interesting thing is that most people would say that this is a good position.​

 

[4ster]

Topic is about recreational skiers and dragging poles drills, especially the outside one, sure helped me.

However as performance picks up maybe we can take 'level shoulders' too literally. This article from Paul Lorenz makes very good sense to me.
Extracts from article:

The point here is that the amount of angulation needed is very small if the skier has inclined the appropriate amount relative to their speed and the pitch of the hill. The spine is not vertical, it is still inclined. Anymore angle than this and the skier would be over angulated creating as many, and potentially more sever problems than being too inclined.

The position in “Diagram 3” is very common among high level skiers and particularly candidates around level 3/4. This “over-angulation” is just as unbalanced and possibly more dangerous than if the skier were to incline or completely bank into the turn as in the first diagram. The ski is over edged and the centripetal force has to go somewhere as it is not opposed or balanced. This usually results in over straining of the leg muscles to deal with the pressure and failing that, the skis jetting out in front of the skier. Over angulation often feels like there is too much pressure or increased “g-force” through the turn. It can feel like leg muscles are struggling and your whole body is getting smaller. This struggle is not only uncomfortable, it also prevents the skier from moving further inside further and increase in edge angle and centripetal pressure. At slow speeds this position can be dealt with through muscular effort. The interesting thing is that most people would say that this is a good position.​

Can’t see the image but get what he is saying. As has been said many times on these forums, skiing is not a position but a dynamic balancing dance. Nothing should be taken too literally, a tag like “level shoulders” is merely a reference point. In any of the photos above, the angle of the shoulders or even the edges will change from one frame earlier or later.