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Slim

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What do you take along for a day tour to prevent hypothermia if you have to hang out for some time(or a long time)?
Why those items?

If someone is injured or has a mechanical issue with their gear that prevents them moving under their own power, hypothermia quickly becomes an issue in the mountains in winter and early spring. At the same time, a full winter ready shelter+sleep system is bigger and heavier than most of us are willing to carry.

Here is my current set up:
  • a down parka warm enough, so that, when combined with other layers, it’s keeps me comfy while at rest just above 0 Fahrenheit*. This is warmer than needed just for skiing, especially since if it’s that cold you won’t be sitting around for long breaks. But, in emergencies this extra warmth might be very much needed.
  • Warm mitten(liners): I have poor circulation, so sometimes my hands get colder than expected for the temps, and I need a super warm mitt to get them warmed up again and also good for emergencies.
  • A reflective bubble insulation sit pad. Nice for lunch breaks, and helps organize my pack. In case of emergency, can be combined with a backpack to keep a prone person mostly insulated from below, where they are likely losing a lot of heat to the snowy ground.
  • SOL breathable, reflective bivy sack
  • Airbag. Possibly one could use an inflated airbag as a cushion, and certainly the empty balloon could be used for wind/water protection.
  • 2 or so chemical handwarmers
  • Small fire starter kit (no saw or splitting tool, so limited succes rate in wet conditions)

Items I have considered:
  • Ultralight Backpacking quilt
  • Blizzard 3 layer bivy sack or jacket. This is the one that I think is the most interesting, since it not only protects from wind still and moisture, but also insulates, whereas down (or even synthetic) jackets/quilts will lose insulation value of time inside a snow cave or bivy sack
  • Synthetic high loft parka instead of down. This would maintain insulation for longer. Currently, what has held me back is the high weight and volume and poor durability of those pieces, but it might be worth reconsidering now that there are some decent options weight wise**
  • Small, ultralight pad, like Neo air Xlite Small
  • Tarp or Mid style shelter instead of bivy sack.

    *That means around 7 oz of 800 fillpower down at a minimum, in size M

  • ** Patagonia Macropuff, Nunatak PCT,
 
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Analisa

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Pretty similar list for short day trips. I also keep some accessory cord, wire, zip ties, and duct tape in my pack since it's all pretty helpful for repair kits, makeshift first aid supplies, and building a makeshift sled if you really need to haul someone out. (Really great lesson from a VertFest event a few years ago). I also carry an InReach and we ski with radios. Stove comes along more often than not. (Hopefully headlamps are a given).

But I also think it really depends on the route & conditions. Small sleep pad, quilt, & Helium bivy come out for trips over 5k of vert. Ski crampons or boot crampons, ski saw, ice axe, wands, and a smattering of rock, ice & snow climbing gear come out depending on the occasion.

And of course that one Clif Bar you carry around for full seasons and only eat when you underpack or get delayed.

As for the parka, there are definitely intermediary options between a down & synthetic. Pertex is much more water resistant than the average DWR coating (it's a coating on the threads vs. treatment on the garment), and hydrophobic down can all help counter moisture, and while there's a compressibility trade-off, it's not as stark. It also improves abrasion resistance and wind resistance. It's pretty standard in belay puffs, since users need to be able to pop it over everything & aren't always in spots where they can safely/easily shuffle layers. Rab's the only manufacturer that comes to mind that utilizes it heavily across their puffy assortment and into <1lb jackets. REI's Magma uses it, and the Dynashell coated ripstop Dynafit uses is supposed function at parity. Or, if you have a puffy that you're liking, refreshing the DWR every 5-10 uses will also go a long way.
 

Pequenita

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I think stove is the only non-first aid/equipment repair thing I'd carry (or make sure someone in my party carried), or a hot beverage in an insulated container, in addition to what you have @Slim / variations on a theme. Tiny headlamps reside in my winter and summer packs. :) My emergency kit does have a space blanket as well as packets of EmergenC or however it's spelled, in case someone needs sugar fast. I read a ton of incident reports for fun this season - the utility of a space blanket seems to be redundant if you've got other insulation, so maybe I can drop that.
 

pete

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nothing significant as I'm pretty lowly and ski inbounds and in groups ... so nothing for an overnight.

However for those more serious especially backcountry and not listed above, ... like hiking I'd think it wise to let others know your plans, ~ return times, area. perhaps standard check ins are handy even if you pester a good trustworthy friend.
 

jmeb

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also carry an InReach and we ski with radios.

Beyond the obvious extra layers, decent first aid and repair kits, and some way to start a fire -- these two communication devices are probably the most important things you can put in your bag from a safety perspective.

I'm stoked that Garmin recently changed their policy and now allows free up- and down-grading of inReach subscriptions from month to month.
 
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Slim

Slim

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As for the parka, there are definitely intermediary options between a down & synthetic. Pertex is much more water resistant than the average DWR coating (it's a coating on the threads vs. treatment on the garment), and hydrophobic down can all help counter moisture, and while there's a compressibility trade-off, it's not as stark. It also improves abrasion resistance and wind resistance. Rab's the only manufacturer that comes to mind that utilizes it heavily across their puffy assortment and into <1lb jackets. REI's Magma uses it, and the Dynashell coated ripstop Dynafit uses is supposed function at parity. Or, if you have a puffy that you're liking, refreshing the DWR every 5-10 uses will also go a long way.
I think this is a typo? Pertex is the entire brand name of fabrics (from Perseverance Mills).perhaps you meant Pertex Pro (formerly called Pertex Endurance)?

I do not think there is a great benefit to highly water resistant shell fabrics like Pertex Pro or Gore Windstopper (Infinium) for down parkas in this case. If there is wet precipitation, using a separate shell, bivy sack, or other shelter over top will protect the insulation from that. The reason that synthetics offer a performance boost is that they do better at handling interior moisture, from damp clothes underneath(Avalance victim?) or perspiration.*
The performance benefit of treated down is questionable.**
For myself, at the moment, I stick with down, since Ithink the same weight of high fillpower down provides so much more loft, that even with some loft degradation it is still warmer. The other reason is compressibility and durability. Synthetic insulations have a very poor track record for durability, especially if compressed tightly (like in a ski backpack). That said, I haven’t tried the newer ones, and certainly the Macropuff seems promising.

*I’m sure @Analisa knows this too.
**https://bedrockandparadox.com/2016/10/04/treated-v-hybrid-down-dont-believe-the-hype/
 
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Slim

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In this thread I wanted to specifically talk about environmental protection equipment, not other (very essential!) things like first aid, communication, repair and evacuation, since that is a large enough topic on its own.

I was surprised to read some people only bring a very minimal insulation layer. In this post for example he (Craig Dostie?) only lists a Nanoair.

Even in cases where evacuation is straight forward, victims can still be sitting still or moving slowly for several hours, and it seems to me that some more insulation is needed, beyond what you bring for brief breaks and cold descents.

Do you feel the same or do you stick with the amount of clothing you might actually wear in a normal day?
 
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Slim

Slim

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@Pequenita , I also often bring a warm drink (not usually a stove, though I see a lot of use for it, including melting snow for drinking water), but do you mean you save your thermos with a hot drink for emergencies? I usually plan to drink it during the day, so if an emergence happens later in the day, it is no longer available to warm someone up.
 

Pequenita

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@Pequenita , I also often bring a warm drink (not usually a stove, though I see a lot of use for it, including melting snow for drinking water), but do you mean you save your thermos with a hot drink for emergencies? I usually plan to drink it during the day, so if an emergence happens later in the day, it is no longer available to warm someone up.

On a day trip, I usually have a not warm drink (room temp? I personally don't like cold drinks) that is my primary source of fluids, and then a thermos of hot broth or something, which I'll drink more sparingly just in case. You can also throw snow in there to keep it filled. It's not a fool proof system. Stove is definitely better.

Insulation-wise, I think you covered the bases. I try to think of equipment in terms of what has multiple uses - so, a sit pad with rigidity may be better than a blow up one because the rigid one can double as a brace if a limb needs stabilizing. On the other hand, if you are my size, carrying a rigid pad is a PITA. I personally wouldn't carry a reflective bubble insulation thing because it is bulky and serves only one purpose, and to be honest, on a day trip, the only thing I would carry as an insulating barrier between myself and the ground is my pack. I don't know why my brain makes this huge distinction between day trip vs. multi-day (as a practical matter, I could go 3 miles in and be as screwed as if I were 7 miles in), but it does. Maybe I should stop.
 
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Slim

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I try to think of equipment in terms of what has multiple uses - so, a sit pad with rigidity may be better than a blow up one because the rigid one can double as a brace if a limb needs stabilizing. On the other hand, if you are my size, carrying a rigid pad is a PITA. I personally wouldn't carry a reflective bubble insulation thing because it is bulky and serves only one purpose, and to be honest, on a day trip, the only thing I would carry as an insulating barrier between myself and the ground is my pack. I don't know why my brain makes this huge distinction between day trip vs. multi-day (as a practical matter, I could go 3 miles in and be as screwed as if I were 7 miles in), but it does. Maybe I should stop.
Good point about the multi use factor.

For me the big difference in single day vs multi day is that on a multi day trip you’d have a shelter, sleep system and stove anyway, for camping, so no need to think about them separately.
If it was a hut to hut multi day trip then that would really be more like a series of day trips, with the difference that you can’t predict the weather as reliably.

The reflective bubble stuff I meant is the stuff that is used to insulate behind radiators and such. I mostly used it because I had plenty around the house to cut up and it is cheap and light. I’d say as far as packability goes, it’s about the same as an equivalent thickness closed cell foam, and about as useful for splinting. However, standard closed cell foam pads are much thicker, so more rigid for splinting but also larger for packing.

40g:
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jmeb

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I could be wrong, but my experience with van insulation was that Reflectix (the stuff pictured above) has a very low R value. It is good at reflecting heat, but it isn't near the insulator that closed cell foam is.

Personally on day trips I take (in addition to wearing shells):

- Down jacket. How thick depends on time of year / day.
- Thick ski gloves or mitts. Which depends on temperature. Until its <15F, I skin and ski usually in just liners.
- Fire starter
- Maybe an extra hat depending on which layers I'm wearing.

Of course, all the answers to this depend heavily on where you ski, how long you're out, and how remote you are. Bushwacking through the woods in the Iron Range is very different than skiing a traverse in British Columbia, is very different than (my usual) skiing within an hour of a major interstate in heavily used BC areas in sunny Colorado.
 

Pequenita

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Good point about the multi use factor.

For me the big difference in single day vs multi day is that on a multi day trip you’d have a shelter, sleep system and stove anyway, for camping, so no need to think about them separately.
If it was a hut to hut multi day trip then that would really be more like a series of day trips, with the difference that you can’t predict the weather as reliably.

Yeah, the multi-day trips that I'm thinking of includes hut to hut, which have been fully equipped with sleeping bags, so all we needed to bring on that front was a liner, or just to a hut for multiple days. And despite the full-equip, we carried a stove, one sleeping bag, bivy on the daily skis. So in my head, I'm kind of like, "Huh, why don't I do that for day skis from my car?" :huh:
 

Rod9301

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In this thread I wanted to specifically talk about environmental protection equipment, not other (very essential!) things like first aid, communication, repair and evacuation, since that is a large enough topic on its own.

I was surprised to read some people only bring a very minimal insulation layer. In this post for example he (Craig Dostie?) only lists a Nanoair.

Even in cases where evacuation is straight forward, victims can still be sitting still or moving slowly for several hours, and it seems to me that some more insulation is needed, beyond what you bring for brief breaks and cold descents.

Do you feel the same or do you stick with the amount of clothing you might actually wear in a normal day?
No question, i use a pretty thick down jacket in the bc.

Because a thin one would not keep me warm enough if I'm incapacitated.
 

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Oh, I forgot [and just looked in my BC bag repair kid] -- I carry a very lightweight [4oz] SOL bivvy all the time as well.
 

pete

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I don't practice these scary daytrips outside of boundaries but there are various self heating foods.

depending on amount of extra weight, maybe decent trade off portable stove.

In survival, one can live quite a while without food, water/fluids however different. Heatgen and a few others are marketing a self heating can for soup/beverages which might be nice, if they get it launched. I've seen these before but understand they didn't work well in very cold conditions. Not readily found these days.

otherwise here's food item general overview, generally self heating MREs. The chem reaction type not much different concept than hand warmers, only water as the activator for faster reaction.


https://gearjunkie.com/omeals-self-heating-backpacking-meals-review
 

Analisa

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@Slim - ah, yeah, I meant Quantum, and specifically Endurance/Pro. Some jackets only use it on the face, some use it on the inside lining as well. Ours is Endurance outer and basic Quantum inner.

Under or over the shell depends on a lot of other factors. I keep a pretty slim shell with the Arctery'x Beta LT since I need to tuck it into my harness and want to avoid getting material stuck in a rappel device. My Cerium LT fits under it okay, but my belay puff (just over 1# for an XS) that I wear through most of the winter doesn't. I wear it over since I'm either belaying, or just popping it on briefly, like for a transition where partners want a snack break or doing a pit test. The hardshell underneath does affect thermal conductivity. If your tours were better suited for, say, the Sentinel ski shell and used a lighter puffy, shell over puffy makes more sense.

As for getting wet, there are very few reasons you should ever be so wet you make an impact on the down's ability to loft. Maybe if you get swept on the uphill. For me, some sort of shell and gloves always comes on for the downhill (to keep myself dry for any kind of tomahawking, or to your point, avalanches), but also as some skin protection against snow rash or a mishandled whippet. Likewise, your skin & a thin, wicking, quick drying base layer shouldn't hold enough water to compromise the down.

As for hydrophobic down, I put very little stock in a blog from outside the industry with a very unscientific evaluation between 1 hydrophobic down variant (there are several on the market) and synthetics. Sure, on a packraft, there's a lot of moisture in the equation to manage and a synthetic makes sense. Same for days with steady rain. I'd look more to an industry professional, like Mountain Equipment's write up. They don't use it in their sleeping bags or many of their down garments, but do think it's a good idea for some garments, like their lightweight down stuff that tends to be worn casually, where the wearer might get it slightly wet for a brief walk outside.

It makes a lot of sense for me. In the PNW, there's a lot of precip, and it's kinda soggy. Not uncommon to climb to get to snow line, or for fat heavy flakes to get on you, on your bag, in your bag at every break and quickly melt. Everything gets damp - not all that wet, but also definitely not dry. I'm not sure if it's the down or the face fabric, but I've never noticed my Rab feel kind of wet like my Cerium does. (But again, neither observation is anywhere close to an ASTM, lab administered test).
 
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Slim

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@Analisa, I agree with you that for many common uses (belaying, rest stops on tours) puffy over shell is the way to go. The only time I personally wear a shell over my down parka is winter camping, or in 3 season use, if it’s raining.

What I meant was in an emergency situation:
instead of carrying a down parka with water resistant shell fabric, you cover the down jacket with your normal shell garment, or a shelter, if there is much wind or precipitation. This way, you save the weight of the water resistant fabric, and, more importantly, in dryer conditions and normal use, you are not restricting breathability of your down jacket, thereby keeping it dryer and warmer (and longer lasting*)​

I am not saying this is “right and wrong” case, there are pros and cons to each system.


*in a recent Blister podcast, a spokesperson for Allied down mentioned that most degradation they found in down loft was due to mold and clumping from insufficient drying.
 
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Crank

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In my pack:

Para cord
Duct Tape
Multi Tool
Matches and some sort of kindling
Space Blanket
Hand warmers
Puffy

Mostly I am not going too far out and never multi day trips.
 

Crank

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Compass. I forgot I always have a compass in my pack and I usually check direction when heading out. Tis is a holdover from sailing where you always want to know wtf you are heading and what direction you have to go to get back. Fog happens and there are no tracks to follow. Electronics can fail.
 

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