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trouts2

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I read it, it just doesn't make any sense.

I don't know if you're an instructor, and advocate suporting the cog with the inside ski, because it's easier to teach intermediates.

@Rod9301 from post 176, I don't know if you're an instructor, and advocate suporting the cog with the inside ski, because it's easier to teach intermediates. (COM above)


No, as in not a central focus on any level versus how to deal with the inside ski within the context of fining out balance during a dynamic turn. It applies regardless of level for fast angulated turns where the outside ski leg is fairly far outside with as much force as possible (or whatever you want to call it and from whatever direction, from the skier, pushing up from the ground/snow, weight, weighting, pressure, some combination of gravity, centripetal or centrifugal on an on….whatever. I’ll refer to that as F.)


I am not strictly advocating that as a teaching point, that you always want to balance COM with the inside ski, (which would be a portion of COM as the focus should be on the outside ski).


But there is this part, if your inside leg is on the snow it should be considered in the total, (period/always). That is just the physics of the whole as the inside ski leg and outside ski leg are connected to the body (COM) (period). The period part is my thinking. If period is rejected so be it.


I think the rub in all this seeing balancing on the outside ski as something that can be done 100%. My position is that is a good teaching point, generally something to actively strive for but not complete. It can be refined more to be more accurate. The reason is a skier cannot balance on the outside ski 100% if the inside leg is on the snow. That is due to physics and if you and others disagree we will have to disagree.


You cannot conceptualize balance to the exclusion of physics.


Going 100% is something Ligety can approach but most can’t. Even he most often has the inside ski on the snow. Just what F is being applied to the inside ski varies rapidly throughout the turn. To avoid confusion just say the very top of the turn is not being included here and the same for the transition at the bottom. The F on the inside ski varies greatly as the turn progresses. It can be small or large depending on how the turn is going. There are many factors that may cause weighting on the inside to be more or less for split seconds. The inside F varies from the mechanics of turn itself, from ruts, ice chatter, the outside arm being back a bit, whatever. A “perfect” turn is too rare to bank on. F is never stable, never one value throughout the turn.


It is not possible to teach a specific value for F for a dynamic turn as it would be too hard to manage a constant value if even that could be done. It would be possible to train for 90% outside 10% inside as a rough approximate if that was desired. For the type of turn discussed that is not desirable.


Teaching/training can be done to heighten awareness of the inside ski, understand its action on the total of balance, the Forces that are in play and etc. [Keep in mind COM is connected to the snow in two places.]
 

Josh Matta

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There's actually a mogul skiing technique where you put all your weight on the uphill ski. That would sort of be the inside ski.
@Josh Matta talked about I think Terry Barbour using it.

to clarify @James post Terry is about more balance going though the inside ski especially in very unconsolidated conditions or extreme viable stuff.

think mank bumps, thick ice chunks on groomer, dense powder that doesnt float as well as typical dense stuff, wind slab on skinny skis. Its still more balance towards the outside ski, but he teaches people to do it be doing inside ski turns literally in the condition they are struggling with.
 

trouts2

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page 33-37

http://www.ronlemaster.com/presentations/USSA-symposium-Copper-Mt-2015.pdf

From the explanations I've seen from you in this thread, I'd guess not and in that case, you might consider a few other sources:
Mike

@Mike King


RE: Level. You may have missed my response to Noodler, see thread #162.

Over the years I have come across just about everything you have listed, and many piles more. I can’t specifically remember the pyramid but aware of all of it and agree with it.

Outside ski to outside ski is a generality but a mantra for me to others. Unless accompanied with an explanation it is confusing. For me it is a done deal and incorporated into my skiing.

LeMaster I know.

I think there were 5 PSIA fundamentals and I believe they were to clean up language and concepts about how to describe aspects of skiing. I watched a video by a PSIA gal who was introducing them. There was a link on that video for “free” information about them that is now a link to a link to join PSIA to get any articles they have.

For
  • JF Beaulieu: The outside ski is the rider, the inside ski the decider'
I can’t remember seeing rider/decider. I may have and would have not followed up on it if I did. I have seen most if the Treble Cove crew’s videos but not purchased any of their videos. I’m beginning to be a little put off with them and HH for their language with the caveat, if you want the detail buy the videos here….. They have some good video’s but the promo part is a putoff.

For the CSCF I can’t remember if I specifically saw that or not. But it is something I agree with. It does say “Goal” which it is for me, very much so. I’ll google for it but if you have a link please post or message it.

Basically, I’m aware of and agree with all points you listed.

I just made a post to Rod9301 that may clear up my position.

The only time I ski on edge with 100% balance on the outside ski is doing fast drills with my inside foot off the snow. For me, if the inside ski is on the snow 100% is not possible. The reason is in the initial posts and again in the post responding to Rod9310. As I wrote, to get to 100% balance you have to ignore physics.
 

Noodler

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@trouts2 - as I stated in my first reply to you, you seemingly have not read this entire thread before you started chiming in. Go back and read the @razie posts starting at #70 and continuing with #72 and #74. Really digest that material because he is absolutely spot on regarding the correct approach to this subject.
 

Rod9301

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There's actually a mogul skiing technique where you put all your weight on the uphill ski. That would sort of be the inside ski.
@Josh Matta talked about I think Terry Barbour using it.
Doubt it.

Maybe you're referring to the very beginning of the turn, when you ship weight to the old inside ski

Otherwise, no way you would have weight on the inside ski through the turn.
 

James

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p.s. Here's Lindsay, a great montage showing the exact same movement pattern. Watch how late at the blue gate the pressure and ski bend appear - and when it appears, it's on the outside ski! She is just tipping the skis on edge, without any pressure, just creating big angles, for so long... only in frame 4 from the back does some pressure and ski bend appear.
IMG_6198.PNG

Yeah this is essentially what @trouts2 has a problem with. Your "100%" isn't. I don't have an issue with the 100% goal or teaching, but call it what it is. If the inside ski is on the snow and tracking, you're not at 100%.


"Only in frame 4 from the back does some pressure and ski bend appear"

The ski can't change her path without pressure. Between 6 and 7 images from the left her path changes. It's not "just creating angles". Even if that's the teaching focus.
 

Rod9301

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View attachment 70396
Yeah this is essentially what @trouts2 has a problem with. Your "100%" isn't. I don't have an issue with the 100% goal or teaching, but call it what it is. If the inside ski is on the snow and tracking, you're not at 100%.


"Only in frame 4 from the back does some pressure and ski bend appear"

The ski can't change her path without pressure. Between 6 and 7 images from the left her path changes. It's not "just creating angles". Even if that's the teaching focus.
Ok, got it. it's not 100 percent, maybe 98 percent.
The point is, the inside ski, if it's close to the outside ski, ie Berry little separation, cannot support the com.

The only way it can is if you so with feet wide apart or a-frame.
 

JESinstr

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Of course it's not 100% and I don't think there is an accomplished skier in the world that skis based on trying to gage and manipulate inside/outside ski pressure percentages. The focus is to align the COM with the outside ski and if the inside participates for any reason, no problem....deal with it!

As usual with stills and collages, they do not portray velocity. I don't see any wings protruding from Lindsay so Bernoulli's principle does not apply. I assume she is traveling at such a high rate of speed that the release after frame 9 back makes her somewhat "airborne" until gravity re-engages her with the surface circa frame 6 at which time it is the inside that leads the way. Don't Know if that was the plan or just the way it happened. Either way, she has the talent to make the most of the situation.
 

trouts2

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[QUOTE="Noodler, as I stated in my first reply to you, you seemingly have not read this entire thread.[/QUOTE]

@Noodler

Your first post on this was nonsense so ignored. You did it again.

Before I posted, I read through all the posts a number of times. As the posting progressed I re-read through them again.

I did my homework, now you do yours.

If you want to draw my attention to something make your case in a post.

Define your issue, organize it and write it up in a post.
 

James

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Did anyone look at the pages of the Ron Lemaster presentation I included above? It is very interesting.
Mike
Yes. Be nice if the mechanism of increasing outside ski edge was gone into. I guess that's in the actual talk.
 

HardDaysNight

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Yes. Be nice if the mechanism of increasing outside ski edge was gone into. I guess that's in the actual talk.

I’m pretty sure you know how the outside ski edge angle is increased. Ron has no other magic formula. Vonn has always had an A-frame; doesn’t necessarily mean she has a lot of pressure on her inside ski - although sometimes she did, leaned in and crashed. It was her main fault.
 

geepers

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And would seem to confirm some of what @Doby Man seemed to be alluding to above.

I don't think it is that relevant for most recreational skiers unless you objective is to win the NASTAR Nationals.

Mike

Yes. It's been posted before - however I get more out of it every time I re-read it.

Yes. Be nice if the mechanism of increasing outside ski edge was gone into. I guess that's in the actual talk.

That's probably worth it's own topic.
 

razie

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View attachment 70396
Yeah this is essentially what @trouts2 has a problem with. Your "100%" isn't. I don't have an issue with the 100% goal or teaching, but call it what it is. If the inside ski is on the snow and tracking, you're not at 100%.


"Only in frame 4 from the back does some pressure and ski bend appear"

The ski can't change her path without pressure. Between 6 and 7 images from the left her path changes. It's not "just creating angles". Even if that's the teaching focus.

Agree with @James on this. If the ski is in contact with the snow, leaving a track, you can't say it's zero from a physics standpoint, even if the aim of the skier was zero. That is the main point though: that the skier aim to unload the inside ski and direct all pressure/balance towards the outside. Lidsey's skis though changed maybe 3-4 degrees between frames 7-6 and then 90 degrees between what, 5-4? So the pressure in 7-6 is quite negligible... also on the "close stance" that's more vertical separation than lateral... the inside boot is very close to the outside leg, getting closer at the bigger angles in the next frame...

Yes. Be nice if the mechanism of increasing outside ski edge was gone into. I guess that's in the actual talk.

As to RLM's presentation - it does say a few things that I thoroughly disagree with, while skipping the important stuff, like what to do to get the angles. It seems too much of just an observation "the inside ski is weighted whenever we have big angles" without distinguishing between causes and outcomes or inputs and outputs i.e. a) is it weighted because of the big angles i.e. there's nowhere to hide it" or b) it being weighted causes the big angles, somehow. GG's article is a lot more elaborate and specific.

We're kind'a going in circles on this, but the reality is that weighting the inside ski at the top of the turn is counter-productive and this is also abundantly emphasized in GG's article as well. Weighting the inside ski at the top of the turn will not allow big angles! If you think about it even from a forces perspective, assume we pressure it - the hips are above the edge of the inside ski so you are 1) pushing your hips up, not allowing them to drop and/or 2) slowing down the inclination of COM, i.e. edge angles. Not to mention the fact that you reduce balance on the outside.

I'd like those of you that ski with decent angles to think really hard at your last run. Did you feel a squat effort on the inside leg at the apex? Or were you more concerned with "stacking" on the long outside leg while shortening the inside leg? Remember, the inside leg is very bent at the apex and if you had even 20% of weight at 2.5g centripetal force, you'll have the equivalent of half your body mass on it, which is exactly what you have in a deep squat! So please think hard about this: did you feel the effort of a deep squat in each of the last 20 turns of your last run? What about the entire day? Did you just do a thousand deep squats that day while still smiling and having fun??? If not, if you felt a lot less than that, which is my case, then you had much less than 20% on it, i.e. can we please drop this notion already?

I'm sorry if the physics of the apex pressure is not obvious, but this is the part that even GG is getting wrong when he shows them 50% weighted aroudn the apex (from what I remember - appologies if I'm wrong). Nobody ever really does that, even if it logically sounds reasonable - at 2g it would mean a squat with the equivalent of your entire body weight all on the inside deeply bent leg, i.e. double the weight of your normal deep squat! Nobody does this in each and every turn...

What his and many other diagrams like this are missing is the dynamic nature of the performance turn's pressure, which is abundantly clear in Lindsey's turn though... which is mostly weightless. When you're nearly weightless, 50% of almost nothing is less than almost nothing, i.e. whatever!

p.s.
If you really are doing the effort of a deep squat in every turn and you still have fun... you can double the fun by carrying someone of your weight on your shoulders :eek: Just think about all that fun you're missing out on ;)
 
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